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Wednesday, September 10, 2008

Comments

CrupteveMut

Сплошные приколы!!Заказал диван амстердам в интернет-магазине http://www.good-mebel.com, ну конечно как и все повёлся на их отзывы. притарабанили диван в 4-00 утра.(люди спят в это время господа, вообще-то)..Шума устроили во всём подъезде,разломали к чертям весь лифт. Диван я присматривал в салоне ДИВАНЫ И КРЕСЛА, а купить решил в интернет магазине так как дешевле!Визуально я помню как выглядит диван София.МЛЯЯЯТЬ!!!ну привезли такое гавно что даже трудно диваном назвать!хотя уверяли то что как в салоне.ДЛЯ ЧЕГО вы привезли диван в 4 утра?для того что бы я с просони не понял что вы мне втюхиваете?И отправил я их –на 3-4 стороны,короче нах…….й.И решил заказать в другом месте за 15300 в магазине http://www.mnogomebeli.ru и когда привезли диван это повергнуло меня в шок!ещё хуже диван….и в 5 часов утра.У меня складывается такое ощущение что это одна шайка-МОШЕНИКОВ. А дальше я пошёл в салон и купил там!хотя и дороже,эксперементировать замучился.

Sarah TX

Lauren, you don't really understand how counselling works, do you? Did you even finish the story? Notice how no one was forced into chosing either option, but the counsellor worked with both women to decide what was best for them and their situation. It's called "agency", and we all have a right to it.

lauren

No Nell, you were the one who put the idea that pregnancy was "punishment" into her mind. You played on her fears and then on her entitlement. This story is shameful, but not for the reasons you think.

Julie Shockley

Thank you, Diatryma, for your compassionate response. There just aren't any easy answers, and I appreciate your sympathy very much.

Diatryma

Julie, it's horrible that you were not permitted choice. Forcing someone to have an abortion is on the same line as forcing someone to have a baby. I'm sorry you went through that.

Ice Rabia

My friend got pregnant when she was just 15. My brother impregnate his girlfriend at that same age... but of of them went through with it, not knowing what consequences lie ahead of them. My brother is now struggling and working from one job to another. My friend got married, but with another guy whom she thinks loves her and the baby. Life really has though decisions but there is always a way to solve every problems...

Julie Shockley

On the flip side, Nell, my mother made me have an abortion as punishment for getting pregnant when I was sixteen. They (the adults) made my baby's father go along, "to teach him a lesson." Every coin has two sides.

Morgaine

Jess,
Adoption is not a real alternative to abortion, I think adoption hurts more than it helps really. There are all ready so many children in foster care or group care facilities in this country who will never get a home, why add to that? I know, because a brand spanking new baby wouldn't waste away in foster care, it would get adopted, however it would mean one more child will not get adopted. If my child came to me at 17, pregnant, she would know what I would want her to do, but if she decided to continue the pregnancy, I would encourage her to parent it. The choice to abort is done generally at the beginning of a pregnancy, the choice to place the baby for adoption should only be made after the child is born. I see these as two separate decisions made at two totally different times. If my child wanted to place her child for adoption, I would encourage her to wait to even look at parent profiles until after the baby was born, because the pressure to follow through on a financial "obligation" when adoption is discussed prior to birth is great. (I know a lot about adoption, and I don't like the way it is run in the country...adoption is about finding homes for children, not about finding babies for parents).

Jess

Nell:

Where is the mention of adoption as one of the "choices" for these young women? If we are really pro-choice, the options of keeping the child, aborting or giving it up for adoption have to be offered.

And your quote about her felling "punished" with a child? I think we should move away from that view -- that having a child (whether you keep it or give it up for adoption) is a punishment!

Morgaine:

Glad to hear you wouldn't force your 17-year old daughter to have an abortion. I hope the encouragement you would give her to "think about here own future and the future of the child" (your grandchild!) would include thinking about adoption.

meepster

Adoption is really irrelevant in this debate. The issue is whether a woman - or a girl - can be forced to give birth against her will. Once that basic right to bodily integrity is violated, it does not magically make it all right to say "Oh, you won't be forced to care for this child for 18 years - it can be put up for adoption." The violation has already happened by that time. Adoption won't change the fact that the girl went through 9 months of pregnancy and all the health risks and consequences that it entails, or that she went through the pain of childbirth.

Diatryma

Wasn't it called 'anti-abortion' vs 'pro-choice' until fairly recently?

BJSurvivor

"RTL" doesn't cut it, either. They care nothing for the lives of women, ACTUAL children, animals, our entire planet. I prefer "pro-life-until-birther" or "forced-birther" or "forced gestation proponent" or "god-blathering misogynist." If I feel like being polite, I use "abortion rights opponent" or "anti-choicer."

SoMG

BJS, you wrote: ""Pro-life" in regard to these people is a joke term. "

I always use the term "right-to-lifer" or RTL.

BJ Survivor

Lisa, I have come to the realization over many years that the vast majority of "pro-lifer" simply do not care if women are maimed and die, even though, logically, those precious embryos will die, too. It isn't and has never been about "saving babies." It's about punishing women for daring to commit the crime of being sexual beings (in the case of "pro-lifers" who allow for rape/incest exceptions), while the rest just want to punish women for daring to exist. That there are females who adhere to this vile ideology is something with which I still have a hard time coming to terms.

It's no coincidence that the countries which provide those benefits to help ease the burden of parenting (supposedly the "most important job in the world" that forced-gestation U.S. conservatives are unwilling to fund) are, to a one, pro-choice. The more pro-choice a country is, the better its treatment of women, children and families. It's one of the reasons I won't use the term "pro-life" without quotes in regards to these cretins. That and the fact that the vast majority of "pro-lifers" are anti-environment and pro-war. "Pro-life" in regard to these people is a joke term.

Lisa

It never ceases to amaze me how most pro-lifers seem to think that they can criminalize abortion and that will solve the problem. BJsurvivor has it exactly right: the women of means will find a way to terminate the pregnancy, while poor women and teenage girls will literally die trying. Why don't they funnel their efforts into something that will realistically do a lot of good and help negate some of the reasons women choose abortion? They should be supporting programs that help teenage girls pay for daycare so they can stay in school, programs that cover prenatal care for low income women, programs that help single mothers feed their families, and programs that train and support adoptive families. My guess is that a lot of people reverse their position when it impacts their own pocketbooks.

BJSurvivor

"Forcing yourself into motherhood as a punishment for your "bad behavior?" This is not how I want women to view the sacred tasks of mothering. How does it impact your pregnancy/parenting experience (and your self-image) when you start your family under these conditions?"

Yeah, I've never understood this thinking, either. I love children and I would never wish them upon those who do not want them or haven't the capability to care for them. Just as I love dogs and would never want them forced upon people who dislike them. Forced-gestation ideology denigrates life and the human condition; it is neither "pro-life" nor "pro-child" and it is absolutely anti-woman. It's no coincidence that "pro-life" countries have the most dismal statistics on maternal and infant mortality, as well as superlatively horrid treatment of women. Of course, the "pro-lifers" stick their heads in the sand about that. Just as they stick their heads in the sand regarding the fact that women will still have abortions if they if safe, legal abortion is outlawed. Women of means, such as myself, will always be able to find a sympathetic doctor or fly out of the country to obtain a safe one. But, as it is the world over and as it was in the U.S. pre-Roe v. Wade, it is poor women and young girls who will take desperate, dangerous measures to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

BJSurvivor

Sorry, the server did not accept my HTML. Here is the website:http://bjsurvivor.livejournal.com/618.html#cutid1

BJSurvivor

There are literally hundreds of thousands of children waiting to be adopted in this country, but they have committed a grave sin. They are no longer cute little babies and far too many of them aren't *gasp* white. Many of them also have special needs. It is no woman's job to provide babies for infertile couples. Women are not brood mares, as the "pro-lifers" would wish to make us.

Furthermore, you should try some reading comprehension. These girls DO NOT have the support and resources that Bristol Palin apparently has. And you should also try reading your own holy book. There is NOTHING in the bible that would lead one to believe that Yahweh values each and every embryo and human being. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Here is one place to start, complete with references to the relevant scriptures.

shawn barr

From article: "Forcing yourself into motherhood as a punishment for your "bad behavior?""

Fortunately we know this is not he only option for a girl who finds herself pregnant. There are more than the "two" options you list of becoming a mother or abortion. There is also the adoption route. There are literally thousands of couples who are unable to have children that would love to adopt a baby and raise it in a stable, loving environment.

Marriage is also certainly not a necessity in these cases. These girls can have their baby and raise it with help from family or friends if they choose not to adopt it out.

We also know that not all people view these girls with judgmental eyes. Many view them with compassion, grace, and the real desire to help.

It is a sad story, that doesn't have to end with the sadder consequences of abortion. God offers forgiveness and love through Christ and help from the Christian community.

Morgaine

I really have a hard time with Sarah Palin only because I do not think her daughter should be forced to take "responsibility" and have the baby and marry the babies father. I think the punishment is more the marriage part then the baby part. I was a 17 year old pregnant girl, who knew that I either have an abortion or be stuck in a marriage with a guy who had a lot of growing up to do. He was the one pressuring me to marry him, and I just knew neither of us was ready. I was the "product" of 17 year old parents, and I knew that I wanted better for my children, I still do.

If my 17 year old came to me pregnant, the last thing I would want for her to do is get married. Obviously, at 17 it is her decision to make, and I can't force her to have an abortion, but I can encourage her to think about her own future and the future of the child.

The other part of the Palin's story I have a hard time dealing with is that it seems that they are glorifying Bristol's pregnancy and soon to be marriage. You know they won't have a quiet ceremony, but a big ordeal so that they can make a media circus out of it and that is just wrong. How many young girls, who may not have the self esteem I had when I was 17, 16 etc, will see that and see how "lucky" Bristol Palin is to have a fairy tale wedding, to a cute guy and will have a cute baby. How many 17 year olds who are looking for a way out of their lives will try and have the fairy tale that Bristol will seem to have? And how many of those 17 year olds will be severely disappointed when the life they thought would save them only leads to a lot more stress than the normal stressors a 17 year old normally faces?

It is a sad sad story, with ramifications that a lot of people are unwilling to admit to.

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