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Saturday, March 17, 2007

Comments

Sandra

I've just been letting everything wash over me recently. So it goes. What can I say?

Julie

"See a psychologist for unresolved issues..." yadda, yadda, yadda. That's very clever.

NOT!

Come back when you decide to stop taking comfort from popular myths about pro choicers m'dear.

Phoebe

Julie, go see a psychologist for the unresolved issues in your life ok? That's free advice.

RuthieD

Funny you should claim that I am only uttering NARAL rhetoric. I am far more radically pro-choice than NARAL, whose *gag* Catholic president believes we need to listen to and compromise with pro-lie misogynists. AFAIAC, there IS a compromise; it's called "Roe vs. Wade." It's not enough for you twits, of course, because the vast majority of abortions are performed well before the point of fetal viability. And, then, of course, you cretins don't even like the fact that we have access to contraceptives or vaccinations that will prevent our death.

I, on the other hand, do not feel there is any need to capitulate to misogynists. I treat bigots, racists, homophobes, and misogynists with the respect they deserve. Which is absolutely NONE. Unless I'm related to you, and then I'll just tell you to can it if you value our relationship.

Julie

Hey Anon:

Can YOU two say anything more intelligent than the usual NRTL catch phrases and rhetoric?
Hey Nicole:
There is little comparison between fetuses and already born people in comas.I'm waiting with bated breath for you to trot out the Hitler comparisons.

Anon

RuthieD,
Can you say something more intellegent than NARAL Pro-Choice America catch phrases and rhetoric?

Diatryma

Nicole, how do you reconcile not wanting any woman to be forced to give birth and not wanting most women to have the choice to end a pregnancy? It reminds me somewhat of a friend of mine who said that she was staunchly pro-life, but wanted her friends to be able to have abortions because she trusted us to do what was right-- with the unspoken implication that every other woman who might consider abortion was a whore using it for birth control.

RuthieD

As a person and an autonomous moral agent, I absolutely have the inherent right to decide when or whether to bring forth new life through my body. My body is not community property. It does not belong to the church. It does not belong to the state. It does not belong to the insensate lifeform that may have slipped past all the defenses I have erected to prevent its taking hold within me. My body belongs to me. Just as your body belongs to you.

RuthieD

And that's the beauty of the pro-choice position. You are free to mindlessly spawn as many human beings as you like, even though I and many, many others consider such action to be incredibly irresponsible and utterly reprehensible. What you ARE NOT free to do is to impose your misguided belief that mere existence, no matter how horrid and agonizing, is something that women and only women must be forced to sacrifice their bodies, their dreams, their goals, often their health, and sometimes their very lives so as not to offend "pro-life" sensibilities.

Nicole

And by the way, I don't believe any woman should be forced to give birth. That's called cruel and tyrannical. I do pray however, for a society that eventually values women AND their children equally, enough to give BOTH a chance at a happy and healthy life..that is the ideal, what we in society should strive for. We should work for a world where women will CHOOSE birth rather than ever being "forced" and realize their offspring have inherent value,not assigned value from us. It will be OUR choice as women, and our choice will be ordered toward life.
True freedom is not being able to do whatever you want...that's called being enslaved to your passions. True freedom is being free enough to choose the good.

Nicole

Since when does being "wanted and cherished" determine the worth of a human being? What you are in essence saying is that only those humans who are "wanted" should have a 100% right to live. What about all the unwanted, unloved, sick and dying people in this world? The crippled, those in comas (hey, you could call them "non sentient developing human tissue" too, Julie), those months away from death in nursing homes. If we can kill our unborn children in the name of choice and privacy, what's to eventually stop our choice of killing those no one cares about; those we considered unloved, burdensome and not worthy of life? I mean when you think about it they are better off dead, especially the very young and the very old and those in comas (i.e. all those with the inability to reason or make their own decisions, or with limited brain function like feti). Even if they can think a little, they are in horrible misery with no one to love or care for them. Our killing them is doing them a huge favor.

So who decides? Who decides who's "wanted" and "cherished"? WE do, after all. We already have! America: killing our feti legally since Roe v. Wade. It's OUR freaking choice. It's not the government's or a neighbor's or the church's. Ours, ours, ours. ME, ME, ME. I am alive! life is good! (for me), and I have the right to do whatever the heck I want with MY body and the helpless, nonsentient, suffering, or otherwise unwanted bodies of others who don't matter anyway.

Of course I hate suffering. Who doesn't? It is pure evil. I hate seeing children, especially infants, suffering...does that mean *I* have the right to determine the worth of their life? Suffering will always exist in this world. ALWAYS. We are stronger and more blessed for it, as paradoxical as that sounds. The sick and dying teach us SO much about what it means to be alive. Why do we squander such a gift? Because it hurts, horrible, inexpressibly sometimes, but living through the pain is part of life. Human beings, at any stage of development, have worth for EXISTING, for having been created by God in cooperation with man and woman, not for what they can/can't do, think, feel, or how long they'll live. That is the essential pro-life philosophy. It starts with this one idea: that life is worth living BECAUSE it is life. It is from this one point that all other prolife arguments (good, coherent arguments, that is) stem, and since the prochoice philosphy doesn't agree with this starting point it's pretty much impossible, unfortunately, to really discuss anything on the same page.

RuthieD

Diatryma, you've hit the proverbial nail on the head for me. I shudder to imagine a "pro-life" utopia in which my beloved mother would have been FORCED rather than willingly, joyfully, lovingly bearing me with the attendant permanent damage to her body, the indignities/discomforts/immune suppression of pregnancy, and then the excruciating pain of labor to bring me forth. The misogyny, narcissism, and megalomania expressed by the forced-gestation crowd never ceases to horrify.

Diatryma

Rather more importantly, my mother chose to have me. She did not choose to have sex, and then have to have me. She did not choose to get married, and then have to have me. She did not choose to go to a party and glance away from her drink, and then have to have me. My existence was not compulsory. No one forced her to have me.
I know I'm wanted and cherished. I'm not a side effect of some other decision.

Julie

Red herrings, Jess, red herrings.

Yes, my mother chose to have me. Ironically, I was was born at a time U.S. law denied women the right to choose an abortion.
But, even if my mother had chosen to abort me, it wouldn't have made ANY difference to me as a fetus. I wouldn't have felt a thing. Besides, I probably would have been reincarnated eventually. And I would still be on this board (but under a different name) and STILL saying you are wrong.

Jess @ Making Home

What a tragic thing that a woman going through an identity crisis, with possible vascillation from moment to moment on which decision she ought to make, was not told, "you know what? You don't have to make this decision today. This is an irreversable decision, and it ought not be taken lightly. Go home, rethink this, give yourself a week, and THEN if you feel the same way, come back."

It seems like you've played the part of a predator preying on a weak and vulnerable victim.

Jess

Seperate issues Julie, and you know it.

Lucky you had a mother that made the choice of life...for you.

Julie

Well, Jess, while you wring your hands over non sentient developing human tissue, wanna take a guess at how many sentient (ie: "post born") children die of starvation, war, or easily curable diseases around the world? Try to put things into perspective. Feti don't feel anything, but those kids who won't live to see their fifth birthdays sure do.

Frank

Just a question if I may...What sort of ultrasouds do you have and how many?

Jess

Amnesty International to advocate abortion as a human right….
Now I know for sure that the world has gone completely mad.

Is there no hope for the 126,000 + people each day in the world denied their existance ?
http://www.sexual-health-resource.org/hormonal_birth_control.htm

beatrice

Good heavens, Jess, just imagine my surprise when I realized that "abortionfacts.com" is owned by an organization that sells such classic literature as "God Is Pro-Life."
Typical misleading [email protected], really. About on a par with the "clinics" that contain no medical professionals.

Jess

A very interesting link:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_927hh.asp

roula

also, from that blog someone jess linked to:

2) Former abortion counselor, Nita Whitten, says, "It's a lie when they tell you they're doing it to help women, because they're not. They're doing it for the money."

[the governing force behind the abortion industry is] Money. It is a very lucrative business. It is the largest unregulated industry in our nation. Most of the clinics are run in chains because it is so profitable.

hahahahaha. right! tell that to my landlord.

seriously though. most people in "the industry" (haw) make a pittance compared to their counterparts, whatever level they are at, in less "political"-tinged fields. and in case anyone wants some numbers, there are about 1800 abortion providers in the whole country, and about 2300 "crisis pregnancy centers". do what you like with those numbers.

i also liked the "confession" that fetuses are disposed of in the garbage can. as far as i know it's like any other bodily tissue, if you are in a hospital it goes to the hospital's own cremation furnace and if you're in a stand-alone clinic it has to be taken away by a licensed handler of human remains (medical crematory, or just a funeral home).

sigh. oh the lies. ok, thank you again lou, and i hope i am not being too pugilistic for a newcomer. sorry if i am.

roula

hi lou,
thanks for writing this, and the blog in general. i came across your blog just a week ago after deciding that i'd like to make my own blog into more of a sharing process for others about what abortion is really "like" -- how it can be so very mundane and also so very crucial. i decided to put it off for a while so i could think about confidentiality issues and maybe learn a little about clinic-blogging from reading your blog. i hope that's ok, and i hope you might email me with tips if you have any :)

i wanted to say to liz ward that it makes no sense to ask questions that are so obviously *judgejudgejudge* of a person about to undertake a medical procedure, even one that can be fraught with tension thanks in large part to external pressures. if a woman ISN'T sure, then the last thing she needs is one more perceived external pressure on her own judgment. i promise you, if you asked any of the questions you suggested during an abortion counseling session you would, objectively, be a bad influence on the patient. there are much better ways to enable a woman to make a good decision for herself, and i'm sure you know that because your suggestions are of course geared toward steering her AWAY from one possible decision. when it comes to a situation like this, that's absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Julie

Nameless, you appear to be making some big assumptions about abortion clinics. I've heard these accusations before, but no pro lifer has been able to follow up with proof.
You also make the assumption that a few minutes of life outside the womb are worth more than the life of the woman, or her continued fertility.

beatrice

When I was 14 weeks pregnant, we discovered that the baby had a fatal chromosome abnormality. If the pregnancy made it to term - which wasn't likely - the baby would live minutes or hours and die in pain. We elected to terminate the pregnancy.
The pressure that I felt to continue the pregnancy was tremendous. Despite the fact that a late-term miscarriage or stillbirth could have killed me, I was subjected to constant barrages of information about how wonderful it would be to give birth to a dead or dying baby. The only reason anyone could give me for WHY it would be wonderful was that I wouldn't have to make the choice to end the pregnancy. I wouldn't have to have an abortion, I'd just be risking my life and my furture fertility. Which, according to these people, wasn't nearly as important as avoiding an abortion.
I was stalked. I had people call my office, call my house, email me horrible pictures, and say terrible things to me. I didn't know any of these people - they were strangers who'd decided to harass me about the most painful and difficult decision of my life. Why? Because they thought they had the right to do it.
I had an abortion. Now I'm 36 weeks pregnant with a (hopefully) healthy baby, one that wouldn't have existed if I hadn't ended that first pregnancy before irreversible damage was done to my reproductive system, or before it killed me. I'm active in a number of forums for women who choose to end pregnancies for medical reasons, and I can tell you that it's a LOT more common than people believe.
The neonatal hospices are a wonderful idea, for the people who choose to carry to term. I fear, however, that the message of "birth at any cost!" will encourage others to harass people like me. This near-canonization of people who decide to carry dying or dead babies to term can be very dangerous for the people who make other decisions.

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