are we post Roe?

The media has all but declared the Roe v Wade decision, legalizing abortion in the first and second trimesters, dead. And certainly all the hype about the South Dakota law would confirm that. Being in a blue state I find it hard to believe that legal abortion will be over any time soon, but maybe I will just be very busy dealing with folks flying in from red states. We have already seen two patients from South Dakota (prior to the law by a couple of weeks), so anything can happen. Personally, I think the Republicans are too smart to let Roe go; it's such a great core issue for their base and it would just evaporate.

Still, there is something akin to apocalyptic in the air. Someone sent me the link to a site teaching ordinary non medical folks how to do abortions. () I was just musing about this possibility to some of my colleagues. At the time I thought it was an interesting tactic, but the reality of it is very frightening. Forceps grabbing at "material" inside the body--makes my skin crawl. The risk of a perforation or uterine injury seems quite high, and remember the uterus has a lot of vascularization so there could be a lot of blood, like a fatal amount of blood. It's very scary, but of course it will happen as sure as we are sitting in front of our computers.

An alternative that would be safer and cheaper would be stockpiling some Cytotec (misoprostol) which is used by a lot of elderly and people with ulcers. And it's apparently quite available over the counter in places like Mexico. Four tabs vaginally (all the way up) or two tabs dissolved in the mouth, or even swallowed is likely to start a miscarriage. It may not finish it, particularly if you are beyond 9 weeks from the last period, but it could certainly start it.

But before you start shaking down your grandmother for her prescriptions, let's get a grip. Abortion is still legal, and SAFE. Remember the SAFE part of "safe and legal." To have come this far and go back to pre-Roe is really depressing. Abortion is the safest medical procedure there is. And the most common. How about that? And, I like to think there is a growing trend of clinics who offer compassionate care, who "get" that this is complex emotional stuff, and offer their patients "specialized medicine." And now we are looking at black market medicine, sterilizing unfamiliar medical equipment in a home pressure cooker.

I keep saying that post-Roe "everything will be revealed." SD Senator Napoli presents as so perverted about sex and abortion that it would be laughable if he hadn't just succeeded in passing a law that will certainly kill some young women. And, we will all be put to a political test about legal abortion. All the mushy middle folks who hate abortion but would like to keep it around, just in case their daughter might need it are going to get whiplash re-instating legal abortion. And what the Roe decision fixed, thousands of illegal, unsafe abortions, and thousands of women dying, would be right back again. I am not completely unhappy that people are forced to consider the what if's. But I am sickened and horrified about the inevitable results of repressive legislation about abortion.

--bon

Comments

[N. from TGC]

BTW, someone with two degrees (what degrees exactly?) in social work would know that correlation does not equal causation.

[N. from TGC]

I'd sure like to see them, Jacqueline. Your rhetoric doesn't match your resume.

Here's my email addy: [email protected]

Or feel free to post your credentials here.

I find your tone and your attitude abusive and cold, neither of which would be desireable attributes for either a social worker or a foster parent.

But please prove me wrong. :)

[Jacqueline]

By the way, if I were going to make up a career, I'd be an astronaut, not a social worker. We work hard and make less than school teachers.

[Jacqueline]

Oh, Diana...

Would you like to see my social work diplomas? My resume? Contact the orphanage I lived in as an intern for the summer, or the adoption agency I also interned for? Or the child advocacy center where I volunteered in college, or CPS were I did my ride-alongs to get my bachelors'? Help yourself.

I have nothing to prove to you, but if you want to think I'm lying, be my guest. It might make you 'feel' better, but it doesn't change the fact that you killed your own baby. If you didn't kill your own baby, how is someone saying that truth to you is so heartless? If it hurts your feelings, ask yourself why.

[Diana S]

I don't believe a word of your story "Jacqueline", anyone who writes such unfeeling, cold-hearted posts would never actually devote her life to saving children. You don't know anything about me, so stop making stuff up about me. And stop making stuff up about your own life and posting it just to prove an imaginary point.

I call your bluff, liar.

[Jacqueline]

To those of you ticked at the child abuse analogy:

I am a social worker. I've got 2 degrees in it. I see child abuse and social problems every day and deal with it to a greater extent than you do, Diana. I'm also a foster mother. I know what child abuse looks like. Do you know I once had a child (from South America, actually) whose father sliced her belly with a machete? Would she have been better off sliced into pieces in the womb? She's now an adopted, happy, beautiful little girl. ADOPTED BY A PRO-LIFE WOMAN, don't that just tick ya off? If you cared about child abuse, surely you'd be a social worker, foster parent, anything. No, you just want to abort, claiming you're stopping child abuse by killing a potential victim? Do you intend to stop homelessness by killing off homeless people, as well? Killing people appears to be your so-called "solution" for social problems. Child abuse has increased 600% since Roe. Your death solution has failed and additionally claimed the lives 46 million children.

Burning a child to death is saline versus burning a child with a cigarette, dismembering a child with forceps vs. cut her arms off: How is there NOT a parallel there? Abortion IS child abuse. Period. You get angry when I present that reality, but it doesn't make it any less true. I don't think any of you are in a position to discuss child abuse.

By the way, I didn't know you'd aborted, Diana, but abortion is the ultimate act of selfishness and despite your delusions, you know that. Choosing yourself and your wants over the child you created is not an honorable thing. I don't hate you or post-abortive women like you but you can't deny what abortion says about you. Abortion is so valued because it allows people like you to do as they please and cop-out at the expense of the life of an innocent child. It says volumes about your character. It says that you're weak, selfish, irresponsible, and a coward. There's nothing brave about killing your child or admitting it to people. It just shows you were too cowardly to face up to your responsibilities. You may think that's cruel, but it's the truth.

It doesn't have to be. You can own up to your choices and choose to be honorable, but you remain unrepentant. I guess it's easier to stay that way if you ever want more abortions, right?

[kelly]

i agree. in fact, i just wrote about this issue. i, too, counsel at a clinic, and i find it heart-wrenching if the US comes to pre-Roe days.

[N. from TGC]

Earlier, Jacqueline asked another poster this question:

//Bryan,

Do you oppose child abuse?

If so, how many abused or neglected kids can we sign YOU up to adopt. We're talking about crack babies, those with severe handicaps, and--of course--those who have different-colored skin than you.//

What's her answer to the same question, or to similar questions?

Jacqueline, you oppose abortion for any reason - how many babies and children have you adopted? Why are there still so many thousands of children in this country alone waiting year after year to be adopted when there are so many prolifers who claim all life is precious and a gift and to be valued over all else? Why are the abused, the neglected, the crack-babies, the handicapped children, and -- of course -- those of differently-colored skin than the prolifers still not being adopted by those who claim abortion is murder and that human life is of more value than any one woman's hardship?

[Diana S]

Jacqueline proves the point of the article on the "Truth about the South Dakota Law".
"pro-lifers" will attack women who get abortions just as sure as day comes after night.
She has attacked me personally because I admitted that I had an abortion. They hate women who get abortions. They will stop at nothing to punish and humiliate us for a very painful event in our lives, if we are brave enough to talk about our experiences. The last thing they want are women coming out and frankly discussing their personal experiences. That is most threatening to their fanatasy of evil doctors making tons of money off of ignorant women. These people are vile, they are so wrapped up in their religious crusade that they will ignore the humanity of real situations. Jacqueline, you represent what I hate most about your "movement".

[Diana S]

And to keep invoking child abuse is the height of hypocrisy. You don't care about child abuse. In countries where abortion is illegal, child abuse and poverty are rampant. Watch the movie "City of God" about how children live in Brazil (where I was born). Abortion is illegal there. Thousands of women who are too poor to afford a clandestine abortion die from drinking rat poison or inserting knitting needles into their uteruses in an attempt to self-abort. But millions more have babies they have no ability to raise. The result is millions of drug-addicted, extremely abused and exploited children who are murdered regularly by each other and gang leaders and police. A child is not the same as an embryo. A child has thoughts, a child hurts, a child has fears. An embryo is a future possibility. To force that possibility into existence because of some crazy fundamentalist "principle" is cruel. Yes you are cruel, short-sighted and ignorant. You are lucky not to have been in the situation I was in to see that I could not bring a child into the world in the right way. No, they weren't in the world yet. You are a cruel, abusive idiot. You need to get out more.

[Diana S]

Why don't you address my question, Jaqueline: Are you in favor of shutting down fertility clinics, which also kill embryos? Aren't the thousands of frozen embryos also "children" like the children in abusive homes you keep referring to? Don't you want to free them from their icy cages?

[Jacqueline]

I am anti-death penalty myself, but I don't think because we do one wrong, that justifies another. For example, we kill our unborn babies, why not our murderers? Or likewise.

Let's not kill anyone.

BUT, I find it disgusting how "prochoicers" will rally to the aid of a convicted murderer and simultaneously support the slaughter of the innocent unborn...

So who would be more inconsistent?

[Pandora2]

"Regardless, I'm proud of SD and hope other states follow suit. It's hard standing up for human rights, but bravo to SD for being the first state to say that human beings have rights before and after birth."

According to the Death Penalty Information Center, SD not only permits the death penalty, but permits the death penalty for felonies in which the defendent was not responsible for the murder (felonies are generally any offense potentially carrying more than one year in prison, including burglery and arson). Hardly a state standing up for human rights. Regardless of how one feels about abortion, SD is hardly somewhere with a commendable human rights record. Perhaps the plan is to wait until the babies aren't cute anymore, then off them?

If one choses to oppose abortion based on human rights principles, please recognize the need for consistence. SD is merely being politically expediant.

[Pandora]

So now that all these clumps of cells will have rights, how many unwanted children can we sign you up to adopt? We're talking about crack babies, those with severe handicaps, and--of course--those who have different-colored skin than you." Actually Bryan, you pro-abortion folks should already have this taken care of. Aren't you the ones that are so concerned about all those BORN people?

[Jacqueline]

You're right, Diana. Stupid prolifers never think things through. It's like those crazy social workers that take children out of abusive homes without a plan to get the all adopted! Sure, they say it's "wrong" to let kids get beaten, but what about other social issues like paying for foster care!? How short-sighted to protect children out of morality and common decency!

Prolifers are like that! They just oppose killing human beings on principle and common decency, without regards to how not killing children will make people like Diana take have to take responsibility for their own actions! They should think about such things!

[Diana S]

When are "pro-lifers" gonna petition to have all the frozen embryos in fertility clinics implanted into uteruses so they can have a chance at life?

Or is a lab considered private whereas a woman's uterus is public property?

Just curious.

I wonder, if all the embryos in america become children, will Europeans start coming here to adopt? Obviously there won't be enough parents to go around.

Stupid pro-lifers never think things through. They're monomaniacs.

[Jacqueline]

Bryan,

Do you oppose child abuse?

If so, how many abused or neglected kids can we sign YOU up to adopt. We're talking about crack babies, those with severe handicaps, and--of course--those who have different-colored skin than you.

[Bryan]

@Anne: bravo to SD for being the first state to say that human beings have rights before and after birth.

So now that all these clumps of cells will have rights, how many unwanted children can we sign you up to adopt? We're talking about crack babies, those with severe handicaps, and--of course--those who have different-colored skin than you.

[Anne]

"Personally, I think the Republicans are too smart to let Roe go; it's such a great core issue for their base and it would just evaporate."

Wow, that's exactly what I think about Democrats and a number of social issues. What would happen if not so many people needed welfare and other assistance? If the downtrodden were no longer downtrodden, the blue politicians would loose their constituency.

Regardless, I'm proud of SD and hope other states follow suit. It's hard standing up for human rights, but bravo to SD for being the first state to say that human beings have rights before and after birth.

[Pandora]

Ah, the old myth of thousands of women dying if Roe goes bye-bye. Yes, it's a myth, but pro-abortion folks just keep repeating it. I don't know that you'll be seeing that much increase in business just because of South Dakota...I believe they were already down to just one abortion mill there anyway.