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Sunday, November 13, 2005

Comments

Pandoras

" the poorest state in the US. the state that is either dead last or next to last in education, opportunity, jobs that pay a living wage." Yes, this is the disaster area known as Mississipi, at least as described by the author of the above article. You'd think with all this grief, legalized abortion would be rather low on the priority list for stuff to worry about.

Me

Uh, Jaque, I've never had an abortion.

See...more lies. And always from the prolifers. Because apparently lying and accusing people of having abortions they never had is "prolife".

Pandora

Rachel,

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but I fear you're wasting your time. You're dealing with a crowd that says "I am woman, hear me roar" but don't you dare ask them to pay for their own abortions.

Jacque

Rachel,

I wouldn't talk to her. She's an angry, bitter, post-abortive woman who has yet to grow out of using expletives and won't even use her first name. She has issues. There's nothing you can do about it.

She's is in a lot of pain and has misplaced her anger towards you. I wouldn't indulge her in discourse. You're just feeding her demons.

Me

Rachel, get a job. Become a contributing member of society. You have WAY too much time on your hands.

Again, since you apparently didn't get it the first time - I don't want to debate. I don't care about your stupid little debate club rules. This isn't high school. It's life. Those of us who have been contributing members of society, who have supported ourselves and our children and our parents, who KNOW a thing or two from EXPERIENCE, don't want to play word games on the internet.

Life isn't a debate. It's not a game. It's real. I know you're fresh out of college and living with mommy and daddy and don't have a care in the world or any real issues to deal with. The point you're missing is that, until you actually have experienced all the things you think you know so much about now, you don't know a damned thing about anything, and your presence here serves only to condemn, judge, and manipulate other people.

I know what an ad hominem attack is. Yes, I think you're nothing but a sad, mindless, spoiled little girl who has no business telling other real women with real lives what's best for them. Yes, that's an ad hominem. Deal with it.

I don't like you, I have no respect for you, I think ignorance and stupidity like yours combined with selfishness and blindness like yours is dangerous.

I don't want to argue, debate, or discuss with you. I also don't want you to lie about who I am and what I've represented myself as. When I did point out your error (manipulative lie), you then engaged in ad hominems by accusing me of slander. Like I said, it ain't slander if it's true, and you lied when you accused me of calling myself an abortion clinic escort or counsellor. So, in your case, calling you a liar isn't slander. Get it now, dumbass?

I don't want your types to hear my story anymore. I, and women in the same boat as I, have learned through EXPERIENCE, that there's absolutely no point in discussing anything with people like you, and we've also learned that we can't trust people like you with our stories. So we stay quiet, but we teach our daughters and our nieces and our sisters, and we fight for choice and autonomy. You, you know nothing about anything, but you fight to take away choice and autonomy. You're all about force and manipulation and denying choice.

Only someone like you would talk about "defeatism" because only people like you see this as a war or a fight and see women who aren't clones of you as opponents to defeat. That statement alone is pretty telling.

Do whatever the fuck you want. Why would I care? Just don't ever fucking lie about me or say I said I was something I wasn't again. I've seen enough "prolifers'" lies to last me a lifetime and there is NOTHING you can ever say or do to change my mind about the contempt and disgust I hold you people in.

Rachael

I'm going to be stepping away from this blog for a while. Don't mistake it for defeatism, because it's not. I just feel a little burned out and that there are better ways I should be spending my holidays than arguing online with people who have their mind made up. I look forward to spending more time with close friends and family, and maybe do a little volunteership in the community on the side. But anyways, I wish everyone a happy holidays to you and yours!

Rachael

For reference, these are the logical fallacies of your arguments and why your arguments with me thus far hold no weight nor gives credibility towards your side.

Personal Attack
Also Known as: Ad Hominem Abusive.

Description of Personal Attack
A personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when attacking another person's claim or claims. This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because the attack is directed at the person making the claim and not the claim itself. The truth value of a claim is independent of the person making the claim. After all, no matter how repugnant an individual might be, he or she can still make true claims.

In general, it is best to focus one's attention on the content of the claim and not on who made the claim. It is the content that determines the truth of the claim and not the characteristics of the person making the claim.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

Examples of your behavior:
"You are a spoiled, ugly, selfish little girl who doesn't know anything at all from experience..."

"So mindless little harlots like you..."

"Get your facts straight, sweetie, and don't make up lies about people just because they see you for what you are - a woman-hating, self-righteous, religious fanatic"

"That is an outright lie. What a surprise - a Crisis Pregnancy Center worker who lies *eyeroll*."

"I'm an average citizen who finds manipulating, lying, conniving, women-hating prigs like you dangerous and repellant."

"I realize you're too young and inexperienced to understand..."

"...you get your big old Talbot's panties in a twist."

"For you, it's not real. It's like volunteering at the animal shelter or joining the Junior League."

"It's not about winning a sixth grade debate competition."

"Seems to me like you're just some little girl whose mommy and daddy have paid her way all her life and who has adopted some cause because it gives her power over other people and makes her feel real big and important."

"Spoiled, ignorant brats like you make me sick"

"It's always easy for the young, inexperienced, and morally self-righteous to go around telling other people what to do when they don't have to deal with the realities of other people's lives."

A Circumstantial ad Hominem
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person's circumstances (such as the person's religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
Therefore claim X is false.

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on A's circumstances.
Therefore X is false.
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person's interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person's interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person's circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example: "Bill claims that 1+1=2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false."

There are times when it is prudent to suspicious of a person's claims, such as when it is evident that the claims are being biased by the person's interests. For example, if a tobacco company representative claims that tobacco does not cause cancer, it would be prudent to not simply accept the claim. This is because the person has a motivation to make the claim, whether it is true or not. However, the mere fact that the person has a motivation to make the claim does not make it false. For example, suppose a parent tells her son that sticking a fork in a light socket would be dangerous. Simply because she has a motivation to say this obviously does not make her claim false
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html

Example:
I'm personally against abortion, therefore any claim I make, regardless of the validity of my claim, must be false or a lie.


Description of Hasty Generalization
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:


Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
The person committing the fallacy is misusing the following type of reasoning, which is known variously as Inductive Generalization, Generalization, and Statistical Generalization:

X% of all observed A's are B''s.
Therefore X% of all A's are Bs.
The fallacy is committed when not enough A's are observed to warrant the conclusion. If enough A's are observed then the reasoning is not fallacious.

Example:
x% of pro-lifers have treated you badly (which I'm sorry for and is unfortuant), therefore all pro-lifers must be that way.

If you really want others to be willing to hear your story and your experiences, people, myself included would be a lot more willing to hear what you have to say, if you didn't launch into hateful vitrol and assuptions.


Rachael

Keep in mind truth is not absolute and is often subjective. If you really want to be open-minded and search for truth, be willing to hear and try to understand other's points of views and consider them, even if you don't agree with them. Coming to the conclusion of truth doesn't come from only hearing one point of view. Which is also why I'm here, as much to try to learn as be understood.

Rachael

Me,
If I have misrepresented you in error, just say so. But there was no need to launch into ad hominem attacks. You've not proved anything. You only have your assertions, stereotypes, and ad hominem attacks, but no rational arguments. There is no more a sign of lacking adequacy in one's argument then to stoop to attacking one's oppenent. If you want to defend your position, then use rational arguments and attack the ideas you disagree with, but let's leave the ad-hominem attacks and stereotyping out. Keep in mind, this blog is public domain and although I don't share the same political idealogies, I have the same right to have a political opinion and express it.

Me

No, this is what you said:

"You protray [sic] yourself as an abortion clinic advocate (escort or counselor) and haven't left a real name. Are you a visitor or one of the two blog owners?"

I did not portray myself as an abortion clinic escort or counsellor, and, no, I have not mentioned those things all that much in my posts, which are still there, and which anyone can read.

I suggest you look up slander. It's not slander if it's true. You told a deliberate untruth which makes you a liar.

I'm not "off the deep end". I'm just not willing to put up with your insensitive, selfish, manipulative bullshit. You are a spoiled, ugly, selfish little girl who doesn't know anything at all from experience, yet you feel like you can tell women whose lives you will never live what is best for them. You push your way into where you're not wanted and where all you do is hurt people and demean them and discount who they are and what their lives are.

Grow up. You don't know anything about real life. You only know what you've been brainwashed with. Get some experience, walk a mile or two in other people's shoes, learn the truth about the corruption, abuse and criminal activity going on on your own "side", and be honest.

I know things because I've lived them and seen things with my own eyes. I know the truth about people like you. I know other women who know the same things because they've lived them and seen them with their own eyes, too. But we don't count in your pathetic, stupid, twisted, lying little world because we might shine a light on some of the dirt on YOUR side. So mindless little harlots like you pretend we don't exist and our stories aren't worth hearing because they might hurt the "cause".

Well, you hurt your own cause because women like me will fight to protect choice with their last breath because of idiots like you. Prolifers who lie, steal, and manipulate are why abortion will stay legal in this country and why women like me will see that our daughters have a choice and that selfish garbage like you will be kept as far away from them as possible.

If you truly want to do something for women, start with the TRUTH. Not that the truth is anything you're even remotely familiar with. They teach you people to lie from day one. That's the TRUTH.

How many girls did you cheat out of choice today, Rachel? How many girls did you lie to? How many test results did you withhold? How many girls did you trap in a little room and start harrassing until they did what you want?

I know what you people do. I've seen it. And it sucks.

Rachael

Oooh, more slandering, really impressive :p I was making an observation (you frequently mentioned clinic escorting in your arguments), not a statement mind you, and was just asking. Geez, you didn't have to go off the deep end.

Me

Exactly where did I say I was an abortion clinic escort or counsellor? That is an outright lie. What a surprise - a Crisis Pregnancy Center worker who lies *eyeroll*.

Get your facts straight, sweetie, and don't make up lies about people just because they see you for what you are - a woman-hating, self-righteous, religious fanatic who would lie to anyone just to get a live baby in the world and then drop the situation like a hot potato once your supposed principles might start costing you something.

I am not a clinic escort or counsellor, nor am I an owner or adminstrator of this site. I have not portrayed myself as such at all, nor have claimed to be any of the above things, nor have I implied that I am.

I'm an average citizen who finds manipulating, lying, conniving, women-hating prigs like you dangerous and repellant.

Rachael

Me,
I'm confused. You protray yourself as an abortion clinic advocate (escort or counselor) and haven't left a real name. Are you a visitor or one of the two blog owners?

Rachael

I'm ignoring your first comment, because there's no doubt you were baiting with your snide and some slanderous comments just for childish bullying pleasure. And please, there's a difference between becoming frustrated and foaming at the mouth. We're not the rabid, foaming at the mouth people you probably assume us to be (or try to paint us to be).

All I'm asking for is fair, unbiased evidence on CPCs and you won't find that at NARAL or PP website, which I've seen the articles they've written on CPCs.

Right, not all woman do regret their abortion. But those who do have just as valid feelings as those who don't and deserve the same kind of understanding and support.

Being poor, victims of abuse, carried a child with birth defects doesn't always lead to a pro-choice viewpoint. Actually, there are people who are or have been poor, victims of abuse, carried a child with birth defects and are still pro-life. They may feel their child is valuable regardless of the circumstances of their birth and their beliefs and feelings are just as valid as your own.

Really the only safe thing about this place for post-abortion women is for those who don't have any doubts or regret for their abortion and support abortion rights, that much is clear by the way they've treated some of the pro-life post-abortion women here (not including myself)

You know what though, there are services outside of abortion clinics that help pregnant woman. One doesn't just have to be an abortion clinic escort to see both sides.

Yes, I've heard of the illegal adoptions conducted by shady lawyers, both domestically and across seas. You know what? I don't trust lawyers to facilitate adoptions. I do believe in strict regulations and monitering of adoption agencies (by this I mean a large non-pofit organization) Yes, and there are a number of reactions to placing a child for adoption as well, sometimes negative, sometimes positive. Just because a person regrets their adoption doesn't mean it's shouldn't mean someone else shouldn't have that choice right? That's what being pro-choice is all about isn't it? Respecting a woman's right to choose the option right for her whether it be abortion, adoption, or parenting.

No one's going to end poverty or homeless any time soon, it's too great of an issue. But people can take steps in relieving the pressure and anguish for a few. But at least it's doing something, rather than just standing back.

Fine, you go back to helping at the abortion clinic and I'll go back to the PRC, each of us doing what we think is right. The only ones we have to be accountable to is ourselves and our higher power (whom ever it may be)

Me

Racheal, if you truly think corrupt adoption practice aren't still prevalent around the world today, you really have been brainwashed.

Bad or illegal or forced adoptions didn't stop in the 1980's, and the United States isn't the only country in the world.

There is as much coercion and manipulation and dishonesty in the adoption industry (the lawyers are making bucketloads of money off private adoptions - how is that better than abortionists making money?) as you claim there is in the abortion industry.

Not all CPCs are on the up and up and you know it, and making rules in advance about what "evidence" you will or will not consider before it's even been offered only shows that you're trying to control other people and that you're only here to push your personal agenda.

If you're really about helping women no matter what the choice, go be a hand-holder at an abortion clinic for a week. Until you've seen both sides, you have no right to assume you know anything.

Most women who abort are fine with it, they are not angsting about it for decades, they're not slitting their wrists. All people everywhere will have a range of reactions to ANY major decision, not just abortion. Just because a minority percentage says they regret their abortions doesn't mean all or even most do. I'm sure lots of people regret lots of decisions. I personally truly regret a bad real estate deal I made once. I'm not going to kill myself over it, but if I had it to do over again, I'd choose differently. Doesn't mean I want to make real estate deals illegal or tell everyone else on the planet never to invest in real estate because of one personal experience of mine.

You don't want women to have abortions. You will try to talk them out of it no matter what. You have made that clear.

Now run along and go end poverty, domestic violence, hunger, gender inequality and write up a universal health care plan and get it passed, and then you'll have done something to help women. Confusing them more and placing guilt trips on them and using skewed and questionable statistics to try to make them believe that they will probably commit suicide if they have an abortion is wrong and manipulative and selfish.

I really am done with you. Your type is just so predictable.

Me

ROFLMAO!!!

Uh, Rachael, take a breath and calm down. I take issue with your presence here and with what you do.

I don't trust people like you, and I have very good reason not to.

I also have no respect for people like you who use a place meant to be a SAFE haven for women who may have experienced abortion or who are faced with that decision to promote your agenda and try to manipulate already vulnerable women.

Go back to your little crisis pregnancy center. What you're doing here helps no one.

Go fix the world and then get back to everyone on how you personally know what is the right and better decision for them to make. Actually, just get a life. Be married and poor and sick and out of work for a few years. Be raped. Be beaten by your boyfriend or husband. Carry a horrendously deformed baby in your womb. Do all those things, and then come back and see how obnoxious and selfish your own words are.

Now, if you're REALLY going to stop responding, something you've said at least twice now, then stop responding. And you really need to calm down with that POST button. Just take a breath and give it a minute, 'k? Because your freaky triple posts tell the truth about how calm and reasonable and lovey-dovey, I-want-to-buy-the-world-a-Coke you are.

You're freakin', girl. And it shows.

Rachael

Me, Now to address some of the more reasonable arguments of your post:

"Planned Parenthood offers all the things you list. For some women, Planned Parenthood is the only place they've been able to get prenatal care, yet your types have vilified PP and actively worked towards shutting them down."

"Your types" Aren't you stereotyping a bit here? I've met some women from Feminists for Life who don't object to the general health care services PP provides, only abortion, but for the time being accepts PP. Are you aware that according to their next to birth control, a large percentage of PP's services are abortion. According to PP's 2004 Annual Services report:
In terms of preventing and treatment of unintended pregnancy, they provided:
- Provided 2,347,352 female reversable contraception procedures, 983,537 EC procedures and 89,705 male reversable contraception procedures. (Not a bad thing as prevention is key)
-Provided 1,073,728 Pregnancy Tests (doesn't specify number of positive or negative tests)
-Provided 255,015 abortions procedures
-Provided 17,610 prenatal care procedures (a considerably small number compared to the number of abortions, of course not all prenatal care clients may be carrying an unintended pregnancy)
-Provided 1,414 Adoption (Referred Out) Procdures (a considerably small number compared to the number of abortions)

And for comparison, they provided services for 29,369 Primary Care Clients.

http://plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/birthcontrol/fact-pp-services-2003.xml

Also, PP is a leading political lobbying group in favor of abortion rights and access. There is definatly bias in their services favoring abortion.

There have been numerous testimonies, articles, and evidences given to support that at least some abortion providers have not been totally honest with their patients while 'counselling' them. Allegations of bias or outright lying to "sell" abortion were admitted to by some of the abortion providers leaving the field.
http://www.freewebs.com/clinicquotes/sellingabortions.htm

You've still not answered part of my question, though: Do abortion providers stand by the woman who grieves after her abortion (whether it be immediatly or years later), do they provide parenting classes, adoption services and/or counseling, services or referrals for community services to women who have chosen to carry to term and/or in need? And can you provide documented proof?

"...for some women, abortion IS the better choice."

Yes, there are some women out there who desire no children ever, and if they were to become pregnant, would have an abortion with no doubts. But for the majority of women abortion is a decision made with difficulty, feeling it's their only choice. Let's not forget that women who procured dangerous illegal abortions were driven by desperation in their situation, as are women who seek legal abortions. No, abortion is a sign that we've failed to understand or meet these women's needs.

"CPCs lie, they manipulate, they pretend they love women until they get what they want, and then they drop them like hot potatos. I've seen the training manuals - you're trained to tell them pregnancy tests take half an hour and to never let them see the actual test (which takes less than five minutes). You're trained to stall them and manipulate them into staying with you so you can talk them into a "better" solution."

Which manuals are you talking about? Are you talking about the Pearson Foundation? The Pearson Foundation shut down many years ago and most national CPC chains are no longer using that manual and have standards of care. I've addressed this in my article on PRCs. Have you actually visited or received services from a PRC? Most centers do not engage in political activism: not picketing or harassing abortion clinics, nor lobbying for legislative changes. The objective of the these organizations is not a political one, but a most practical one: to ensure that every woman knows that the resources and support she needs in order to continue her pregnancy and care for her child(ren) are available. Can you provide documentation of your assertions, and not just from pro-choice sites involved in political lobbying, but from neutral sources such as newspapers, police reports, law suits, etc? If you're going to make a serious accusation like that, you'd better be prepared to back it up.

"I know how you people operate and I've seen the aftermath of women who've been forced to place babies up for adoption against their will. You think it's all sweetness and light on the adoption side, but it isn't. I've seen the women who adopt promise the moon to birth mothers, and then move thousands of miles away so they won't have to keep their end of the deal. I've heard the stories of women who had their babies taken from them in "Christian" homes and who never had a "choice" to "give" their babies up."

Unfortuantly this was a common experience during the early 1900's and probably all the way up to the 1980's. Pregnancy outside of marriage was taboo and woman were often whisked away to maternity homes where they stayed until they've had their baby and at that point, her baby was taken away from her. But things have changed in large to changing attitudes in society, laws, and awareness. The face of adoption today is far different than 30 yrs ago. Now, birth mothers have more rights and control over the adoption process. Birthparents today have many choices, including choosing their child's famly, the level of future contact they want even what they want their child's birth certificate to say. Also, she has the right to change her mind I think at any time up until the adoption is finalized and she has terminated her parental rights. Potential adoptive parents have to go through a lot of scrutiny and in-home studies to ensure they will provide a nuturing, caring, and safe home. For those who choose that route, they deserve caring treatment and rights, as well a sufficient counseling. And although it's not as common, adoptions may still go wrong and that's why we need to be sure adoption agencies are licensed and have standards of care, and birthmothers are aware of their rights and choices in adoption through awareness.

There's no easy answers to unintended pregnancy and poverty, but I do have some ideas of how each of us can make a small difference in our communities.
1)Donate dry/canned foods, clothing (gently used or new), and much needed hygiene items to a local charity (i.e. Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc) or food pantry.
2)Start a support/advocacy group (single parenting, post-adoptive birth mothers, parenting a child with disabilities, etc) in your community or at your college.
3)Volunteer your time at an organization such as American Red Cross, a local soup kitchen/food pantry, Habitat for Humanity, A Better Way, or United Way are some.
4)Have a compiled list of crisis hotlines and support organizations on hand (you can obtain one from your local United Way) if you're a peer or professional counselor and don't hesitate to offer a referral when you see an unmet need in a client.
5)If you belong to a church, some church's adopt a needy family and prepare a Christmas and/or Thanksgiving basket or Christmas gifts for them.
6)Advocate safer sex and awareness on Sexually Transmitted Diseases, as well as testing sites.

Regardless of political stance, everyone should be aware of these issues. Just doing small things can make a difference in a person's life, and if there are enough of us, we can make a big impact.

Rachael

I take back my last comment because I want to say it differently. You continue to show immaturity by responding with sarcasm and taunts. You're being self-rightous in that you think you can judge a person by their political stance. But you are wrong, you've never met that person personally and you only base your assumptions off of prejudices. If addition, you've turned the focus away from helping these women and instead attacking your political opponent. And it won't do the women out there who need help any good.

Rachael

You continue to act childish by responding with sarcasm and I take back my last comment because I want to say it differently. You're very self-rightous in that you think you can judge a person by their political stance. But you are wrong, you've never met that person personally and you only base your assumptions off of prejudices. If fact, you've turned the focus away from helping these women and instead attacking your political opponent. And it won't do the women out there who need help any good.

Rachael

Well, if you read closely, I re-posted because I added more to my comment. Geez, got any more sarcasm? You seem to have a very self-rightous atttitude for some anonymous person over the internet who claims to know people based on their political stance, rather than knowing them personally or through polite discussion.

Me

Gee, Rachael, why don't you hit the "post" button a few more times...

Frustrated much? Can't deal with someone who knows who you are and what you do in spite of what you say?

Heh.

Rachael

You're being hypocritical. Talking to me as if I'm nothing more than a child and dismissing my own life experiences as unimportant is condescending for in case you didn't notice and not to mention your snide comments....

"I realize you're too young and inexperienced to understand..."

"...you get your big old Talbot's panties in a twist."

"For you, it's not real. It's like volunteering at the animal shelter or joining the Junior League."

"It's not about winning a sixth grade debate competition."

"Seems to me like you're just some little girl whose mommy and daddy have paid her way all her life and who has adopted some cause because it gives her power over other people and makes her feel real big and important."

"Spoiled, ignorant brats like you make me sick"

"It's always easy for the young, inexperienced, and morally self-righteous to go around telling other people what to do when they don't have to deal with the realities of other people's lives."

It sounds like you may have some very real concerns, based on life experience, which I respect, but you pretty much lost all credibility with me the minute you started this nonsense. I don't recall once in when I attacked you personally or your family background. I've challenged the general ideals and arguments here, but that's totally different. If you've taken it personally, then it's beyond me. Again, you continue to assume you know me and my personality, by my political stance, but you don't. Constructive dialouge is good on working towards common ground on which to work towards positive solutions for poverty, domestic violence, and unitended pregnacy. But you can make all the accusations and direct the anger toward me and other political opponents you want, and it won't do the women out there who need help any good.

Rachael

You're being hypocritical. Talking to me as if I'm nothing more than a child and dismissing my own life experiences as unimportant is condescending for in case you didn't notice and not to mention your snide comments....

"I realize you're too young and inexperienced to understand..."

"...you get your big old Talbot's panties in a twist."

"For you, it's not real. It's like volunteering at the animal shelter or joining the Junior League."

"It's not about winning a sixth grade debate competition."

"Seems to me like you're just some little girl whose mommy and daddy have paid her way all her life and who has adopted some cause because it gives her power over other people and makes her feel real big and important."

"Spoiled, ignorant brats like you make me sick"

"It's always easy for the young, inexperienced, and morally self-righteous to go around telling other people what to do when they don't have to deal with the realities of other people's lives."

It sounds like you may have some very real concerns, based on life experience, which I respect, but you pretty much lost all credibility with me the minute you started this nonsense. I don't recall once in when I attacked you personally or your family background. Again, you continue to assume you know me and my personality, by my political stance, but you don't. Constructive dialouge is good on working towards common ground on which to work towards positive solutions for poverty, domestic violence, and unitended pregnacy. But you can make all the accusations and direct the anger toward me and other political opponents you want, and it won't do the women out there who need help any good.

Rachael

Correcting an error

*Constructive dialouge is good on working towards common ground on which to work towards positive solutions for poverty, domestic violence, and unitended pregnacy.

Rachael

Talking to me as if I'm nothing more than a child is condescending for in case you didn't notice and not to mention your snide comments....

"I realize you're too young and inexperienced to understand..."

"For you, it's not real. It's like volunteering at the animal shelter or joining the Junior League."

"It's not about winning a sixth grade debate competition."

"Seems to me like you're just some little girl whose mommy and daddy have paid her way all her life and who has adopted some cause because it gives her power over other people and makes her feel real big and important."

"Spoiled, ignorant brats like you make me sick"

"It's always easy for the young, inexperienced, and morally self-righteous to go around telling other people what to do when they don't have to deal with the realities of other people's lives."

It sounds like you may have some very real concerns, based on life experience, which I respect, but you pretty much lost all credibility with me the minute you started this nonsense. Again, you continue to assume you know me and my personality, by my political stance, but you don't. Constructive dialouge is good. But you can make all the accusations and direct the anger toward me and other political opponents you want, and it won't do the women out there who need help any good.

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