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Wednesday, October 12, 2005

Comments

Rachael

I'm still awaiting a pro-choicer to provide the "documentation" of wrongs pregnancy resource centers have committed and proof to back up their assertions, and not just from pro-choice sites involved in political lobbying, but from neutral sources such as newspapers, police reports, law suits, etc.

Rachael

Kyra,
Yes, she has every right to prevent an undesired pregnancy. But once there's a developing human being there, she has no right to destroy it. But that's besides the point. There's usually more than just an unwanted pregnancy and right of privacy and bodily integrety of the woman. It's about women in a crisis situation, when women are in crisis and are also pregnant, they often feel that having an abortion will lessen the severity of their situation, but the reality is the abortion provider takes their money and they are still left in the same situation (whether it be homelessness, an abusive home, poverty, etc.) Having an abortion provides temporary relief for her situation, but doesn't solve the long term issues. How is it pro-choice to make a mother have to choose between her child and her career/education/family? While cetainly there are women who never desire to have children, most women are in the situation where they feel abortion is their only choice based on their situation (socio-economic and lack of support from partner/family). Instead of pitting mother against child, shouldn't we help create a better support system so the mother really has a choice?
Anyone can disagree with my view point all you want, but you'd better be ready to hear my side too and argue with good reasoning and facts, not attacks.

Kyra

"Jess, many pro-life women are all for women's rights, only we believe her rights shouldn't include the right to kill the unborn human."

OK, fine, we can just remove said "unborn human" without killing it . . . Oh, wait, for the first 25 weeks of pregnancy (when abortions tend to occur) it will die anyway? Oh, well, she didn't exercise her right to kill it, so that's all right with you pro-lifers, isn't it?

The point is that her rights should (and do) include the right to refuse to create a baby, to refuse to continue creating one, and to remove an unwanted fetus from her body---to have the same right as any nonpregnant person has to refuse the use of their body or body parts to someone else. No one can force you, me, or anyone to donate bone marrow to a cancer patient, or a kidney to someone who's suffering kidney failure, or blood to an accident victim, regardless of whether they need it to survive. Heck, consent is required to obtain donor organs from a *corpse* which has no use for them whatsoever! So why the hell would an embryo or fetus (whose personhood is in dispute) have rights to the body of another living person, when already-born people don't have the same rights to the body of another living person?

Rachael

Just one more comment tonight.
Jess, many pro-life women are all for women's rights, only we believe her rights shouldn't include the right to kill the unborn human, or pit a woman against her child, and abortion isn't solving many of societies growing problems. Also a growing number of women in the pro-life movement are post-abortive women who have seen hurt and harm caused by having an abortion.

Rachael

I would like to further comment that I do know of a few isolated incidences of volunteers or directors which have stepped out of line, and I apologize to those who have experienced it. However, it seems these incidences are limited to independent centers, where's there's no standard of care and experiences may vary. Most large, national organizations, such as Birthright have a standard for commitment of cares and I have not heard bad experiences with these types of centers. I would still like to see some citations or sources, so that we know they're not just rumors.

Rachael

Anyone who'd like to see both sides of a pregnancy resource center, I've written an article on my web journal presenting arguments from both sides, with documentation and citation. If you're interested in reading the article, you can access it at
http://rsnider.blog-city.com/read/1036676.htm
Regards,
Rachael

Rachael

"Pro-Truth" (pro who's truth, though?)
I would like to see you provide the "documentation" of wrongs pregnancy resource centers have committed and proof to back up your assertions, and not just from pro-choice sites involved in political lobbying, but from neutral sources such as newspapers, police reports, etc.
These centers are offering very real help (see the article I linked to) Pro-lifers, through PRCS, reach out of help meet the needs of women who carry unplanned pregnancies to term, just as pro-choicers demand of them, only they are shot down by pro-choice activist for not supporting the abortion rights agenda. It's not really about supporting women in their choice, or else you'd support the work of PRCs in helping women who've decided to carry, it's about ensuring your political agenda of legalized abortion on demand at any cost.

pro-truth

PowerTee, it's not homicide, it's legal.

Also, there are Crisis Pregnancy Centers that lie, manipulate and practice racism. This has been documented over and over again. Crisis Pregnancy Center training manuals "train" their "counselors" to lie to women, to avoid disclosing full and accurate information, to string women along until abortion can no longer be an option, to turn away those who won't buy into their religious beliefs, to turn away those who aren't white, to push for adoption rather than keeping the child, etc., etc., etc.

Do all CPCs do this? No. But many do, and until you clean up your own act, there is every reason to be distrustful and skeptical when it comes to the "help" these people supposedly want to provide. The CPC industry is just as rife with corruption and self-interest as the abortion industry, if not more so.

PowerTee

Does it matter that abortive mothers are less depressed with better standards of living than those who don't abort their pre-borns? It's alive, it's a human, it's homicide. Just because a woman is desperate in light of the consequences of a stupid choice is not a reason to let her take a course of action that she is convinced she wants--or that she thinks is "okay."

And I sincerely resent the demonization, by some posters, of Crisis Pregnancy Centers (on the one hand) and the flat out foolish assertion, by other posters, that CPC's don't truly exist.

Jess

I am one of the many that are very glad this site exists.. I read it and I read the comments. I just had to de-lurk to say that I am pro-choice.

I have a story, Im sure we all have our own stories..

Im the mother of an almost 8 year old... I also have one thats almost a year old. yet I believe that its a womans right to choose. I do like like the anti-choicers arguments wanting to take away MY rights as a woman. I do not like the idea of a world where I could not have an abortion if I choose to do so.

DP

"I don't find the burden of proof on me to prove that human hearts (people) aren't special"

It's your claim therefore you have the burden of proof. Such as it is. Of course, you don't really owe me anything, but if you want to continue the discussion the burden of proof is yours. Another way to look at it might be this: I'm interested in hearing your views. I'm not going to think less of you if you get bored or furstrated and refuse to answer, but I do hope you will answer because I am trying to understand your viewpoint and won't be able to if you don't expand on it a bit.

I also think you're conflating two ideas: the human heart is not the same as the human being. Or do you think that the baby with a heart transplant from a baboon became a baboon instead of a human baby on receiving the heart? On the other hand, I think that you are getting to the, um, heart of one of the issues surrounding abortion: What is so special about human beings? I have my own answer, which I can talk about if you're interested, but at the moment I'm interested in your answer to that question.

Jacque

DP, see, I don't find the burden of proof on me to prove that human hearts (people) aren't special, because I am not advocating killing humans. You are. The burden of proof is on you to suggest that human beings (human hearts) aren't of greater value than animals.

Jacque

DP, see, I don't find the burden of proof on me to prove that human hearts (people) aren't special, but I am not advocating killing them. The burden of proof is on you to suggest that human beings (human hearts) aren't of greater value than animals.

DP

"Apparently you feel your human life has more value than an animal"

My feelings about the value of life, human or otherwise were not what was under discussion. The question I asked was what is it about a human heart that makes it, in your opinion*, more valuable than the heart of any other animal? You still seem oddly reluctant to address this question.

*If that is, indeed, your opinion. If I have misstated or misunderstood your position I will apologize and withdraw the question.

Jacque

If I conceded, DP, and said that human beings have no more worth than an animal, would you repeal laws to protect YOUR life? No. Apparently you feel your human life has more value than an animal because you're not imposing laws to protect animal life.


Shylah

Add me to the ranks of people who are glad this site exists. It's so easy, in the face of so much controversy, to back down and hide, and I'm proud of you, Lou and Bon, for continuing to update this site and share the heartbreaking stories you're faced with every day.

There seems to be a consistent theme among the pro-life commenters on this site that if women would only seek out help, they'd find it. Obviously, these women have never needed help in that desperate way that women with unwanted or unplanned pregnancies often feel.

When I got pregnant, I was living with the baby's father. We had talked about the possibility of my getting pregnant, and I was under the (mistaken) impression that if it happened, we would deal with it. When I did become pregnant, the first thing out of his mouth was that he'd pay for an abortion.

I am ardently pro-choice. I wholeheartedly believe that it's my choice to feel that way, just as it is every other woman's choice to decide differently.

When my ex informed me that I could get an abortion or get out, I started looking for help. I lived in a HUGE metropolitan area - one of the largest on the west coast - and I found NOTHING. I was turned away at every turn. No medical insurance because I lived with someone who, although he was kicking me out and I was not married to him, made too much money. No shelters because I wasn't on drugs, didn't already have children, and wasn't a teenager. No churches to help me because I'm not Christian. Thank goodness for the internet, because through it, I was able to find a shelter.

It may seem as though my argument supports what the pro-lifers are spouting, but bear in mind that this shelter I found was 650 miles away. In another state. I was incredibly lucky that my ex would rather pay for me to come down here than have my growing belly in his face, and he went on to deny paternity for nearly three years. The vast majority of low-income women do not have the ability to travel 650 miles away in order to get to the means necessary to carry their babies to term. To say that there are "plenty" of places out there that will give pregnant women furnished apartments and medical insurance and transportation is absurd. It's just not true, unless you meet some obscure qualifications set forth by who-knows-whom. The shelter I went to was supposed to help me get on my feet, but because of the religious/Christian-based program, it was impossible for me to get a job. It was impossible for me to become self-sufficient in every way. I was fortunate in that I had experience as a nanny, and was able to find a family who would hire me and allow me and my baby (once she was born) to live in their home. Many, many women who find themselves faced with a pregnancy do not have marketable skills.

My daughter is now almost four years old. As much as it pains me to think of not having her, I have to admit that if I had not had the means to get to that shelter 650 miles away, I would have had an abortion. I could not go on living with this man - he was physically and psychologically abusive - and adoption just wasn't an option for me.

Additionally, I find the argument that aborting destroying evidence of rape as if there is no other way to prove rape has taken place to be invaoid; the only thing an infant proves is that sexual intercourse took place. It's mere presence does not allude to whether or not that intercourse was consentual. It's true that having an abortion removes a man's financial responsibility to another human being, but the thought that having the baby is going to mean he's going to pay is equally fallible. Look at the vast numbers of men who are on the run because of child support arrearages, or those who sit on their asses at home and refuse to work just so they don't have to pay child support. You (general you) are fooling yourself if you believe bringing that baby into the world is going to change him or make him "pay".

Kristina

Hi,

I just wanted to post (with the hopes that the author of the site might have any possible chance of seeing this) and let you know how your thoughtful, heartfelt words were with me as I held my sisters hand during her abortion a month ago. She was 12 weeks pregnant with her second baby, with the second man in a row who was intent on abusing her. She is LDS and went from thinking it wasn't even an option for her, to how she would live with herself if she did it, to now on the other side of what I feel is the right decision for her, even though it broke me in half that she had to make it. The people who cared for her were gentle, warm, and compassionate. They did not overwhelm her, and they understood and honored the gravity of what was happening. She took the ultrasound photo of her baby home with her, and stayed with me while I watched her 4yo daughter so she could sleep and rest, without mothering duties. She hasn't told anyone else in the family that her pregnancy has ended yet.

We were at the clinic all day and while I watched the care providers shuffle women of all ages, races, and emotional status behind the locked doors, I marveled at the loving smile they all had, and the fiercely protective energy they carried of their patient's right to choose, right to privacy, and right to not be judged. I thought of you all that day, and your writings here. They were incredibly comforting for me, even though I haven't been to the site since. Abortion is hard not only for mothers. :)

Thank you for having the courage to write.

BarbH

Not sure whom to address or if this is the proper place to say how glad I am this blog exists. I'm not thrilled piggy-backing on the hatemails, but really want the creators here to know they are doing a wonderful job. I've worked in clinics, counseled women and girls regarding their options (ALL of them) via Planned Parenthood and my own midwifery practice - and know that the anti-choice-ers are delusional believing this blog is lying or distorting facts; it is not. I have never seen a woman's decision not absolutely encouraged and honored and women who were unsure, encouraged to wait, pray/meditate/think/discuss with loved ones/etc. and make a decision in a day or few.

As a Pro-Choice midwife, I speak with surity and clarity in what a woman is choosing - again, with ALL of her choices. Until anti-choicers have a dozen adopted black babies of crystal meth moms (and I specify race because so many anti-choicers seem to draw the line at adopting out of their race - so christian-like, you know), house half a dozen rape and incest and violence-abused women and their other several children, bring in 12 and 13 year old girls and their babies, sit with a woman in a shelter as she nurses her cracked cheekbone, broken arms, and her 2 week-old baby all at the same time - I don't believe they have ONE CLUE about what a woman "should" do when faced with bringing another baby into the world. Not the white, privileged, affluent world, but the world far too many know that goes beyond receiving prenatal care and a handful of new donated baby clothes before being left alone to cope while Mr. "Pro-Life" eases into his Lincoln Navigator on the way to Sunday Mass.

If, because of Bush's horrid decisions, abortion becomes illegal again, I will learn how to do abortions which, for licensed midwives, is illegal - despite what another poster believes not to be so. There are absolutely regulations regarding who is permitted and not permitted to do abortions. (How can someone not know something so clear in written laws is beyond me. Inability to research is merely a sign of the lack of desire to KNOW - not the best way to argue a point and a great way to be dismissed without being heard.)

Anyway, long-winded way to thank the men and women for reaching out, taking a chance, and risking so much for sharing The Truth - their truth - and the truth of so, so many in this country. Even the "pro-lifers" who come for their abortions more than any "pro-lifer" would ever want to admit. More than once, I've held an anti-choice hand during her abortion one day and driven by her two days later as she spit on my car as I drove through their protest line. Never have I seen more hypocrisy in any other community than in this anti-choice one.

Stay strong and true, my invisible friends.

BarbH

Dea

The thing that really bothers me is that so-called 'pro-lifers', in addition to trying to turn over Roe v. Wade, want to take away sex education and continue to block access to emergency contraception. This group of people are uniformly idiotic, bigoted and woman-hating. They refuse to accept reality. They are the same as the Taliban, the same as Al-Qaeda: religious fanatics who wish to force their inhumane and, to my mind, immoral views on everyone else. They are anti-American.

DP

"If your saying there's no difference between you and an animal."

I'm not saying that. I'm asking you (the collective you, not necessarily you in particular) what you think is special about the human heart. Since Rachael wrote that only stopping a human heart was worthy of consideration. What's special about it as opposed to the heart of any other animal?

Incidently, I understand that some pro-lifers prefer threats and violence to argument, but really do you have to go immediately to the idea of cooking me just because I asked you a question? Albeit one you seem reluctant to answer.

Jacque

DP-

Okay, then should I knock you on the head and fry you up for dinner instead of a calf? If your saying there's no difference between you and an animal.

Furthermore, if eating meat is wrong because we have to kill it, why is it okay to kill an unborn baby? Or are you saying it's okay to kill an unborn baby because we kill animals?


DP

"The issue here is that abortion stops a human heart"

So...what's so special about a human heart that we should worry about stopping it more than about stopping the heart of a calf, a cockroach, or a red herring?

Rachael

DP,
Red Herring Argument! The issue here is that abortion stops a human heart.

DP

"So you would suggest that human beings are no different than insects?"

No, I suggest that insects, humans, and other animals all have hearts (albeit the insect heart is less complex than the mammalian). It was Shevon that suggested that killing a creature with a heartbeat was inherently and always immoral. I just pointed out that lots of creatures, some of which we kill every day, have heartbeats.

Jacque

By the way, avoiding malaria is definite reason to stop the beating heart of a mosquito.

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