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Wednesday, September 14, 2005

Comments

sjbr

that moment when i left my then boy-friend in the waiting room to walk into the procedure was probably the longest and the most painful moment of my life. he was just sitting there, but he would have gone in and had the abortion for me if he could have. this guy never did anything bad to me. we made a painful, mutual decision to not have a child. i think he wanted to shoulder more of that decision, which is why actions like Raymond's are important. there are a lot of good men out there who get women pregnant BY ACCIDENT and who are supportive and who mourn and grieve as well. making me have the baby and making himself become a father would not have made him a better man. standing by me did not make him a coward.

Paige

Zube Girl,

I just don't appreciate being called a liar by another alleged rape victim. I don't think abortion should be illegal, just a hell of a lot more regulated and with that being said, I can also feel that I don't have to have much respect for someone like Jillian who attacks me with zero provocation at every turn.

Zube Girl

"...but if I can look past what a monster he is and have this baby, then I don't think much of someone who couldn't."

That was a screwed up thing to say, Paige. For someone who professes they only want clinics to be regulated and not obsolete and and that you do see some value in women having the ability to make a choice, you sure do have a way of putting down women who've exercised their choice.

You don't get to play both sides, hon. Pick one. Because as it is, I don't know where you stand on this issue.

Paige

Jillian,

And one more thing- try being a 13 year old CHILD, who is dependent upon your rapist for EVERYTHING. The way a man rapes a woman and the way a pedophile rapes a child are two very different things. I trusted him, he was the only person I could talk to after I was done with my abortion at Tiller's. Once he knew that he had gained my trust, he used every thought, feeling, and fear I had against me. I am 27 years old, but when I deal with him, I feel like that 13 year old little girl. After awhile, I just did whatever he told me to because I was afraid of what he'd do to me if I didn't do it. So, after being raped and abused by an ADULT, you are telling me I should have found another adult I TRUSTED? Yeah, right.

So, you go on and think whatever you want, but if I can look past what a monster he is and have this baby, then I don't think much of someone who couldn't. Even if I didn't want to keep her, there are millions of couples who cannot have babies of their own who don't care one bit about who her father is, they would love her just the same.

Paige

Jillian,

The man who raped me WAS NOT a family member. IF you could read, you would see several times where I say he was my legal guardian, NOT my parent or any other male biologically related to me.

And I'm sure there are MANY girls out there (unfortunately) to have had the experience of being sexually abused as a child. If I were the one and only lone case, I would almost be happy because that would mean that no other girl has to struggle with the residual pain and trauma left over on a DAILY basis. Wake up and get out of your little bubble. I am NOT some overly religious psycho who wants abortion outlawed completely. If you were TRULY as pro-choice as you say you are, then you would not attack me because a sadistic, disgusting man decided to rape me for 14 years. I am 27 years old and I know it may be hard to believe in your only raped ONCE little mind, but there are worse things out there than what happened to you. I CHOSE not kill my baby because SHE IS NOT HER FATHER, plain and simple.

Zube Girl

Jillian,

I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from. I was hoping my comment hadn't alienated you in any way. And I don't feel that you lashed out at me in any of your previous comments either. I guess that sometimes there are people who just aren't worth engaging in debate, because the arguement gets nowhere, you know?

Anyway, I've sort of made it my mission to stick around this blog and post my experience so that there is more than just one survivor story here. I hope you will, too. I was kind of hoping to e-mail you simply because it is always, well, not nice, but, I don't know, comforting to meet other survivors who had quite similar experiences. But the e-mail link doesn't work. Feel free to e-mail me at tzubemcmahon at yahoo dot com if chatting would be something you are even remotely interested in. If that's too forward, ignore me or tell me to stuff it. :-)

Jillian

ZubeGirl, I do appreciate it, but I am absolutely stunned by this dog-and-pony show this person is putting on.

I just had a conversation from someone who is active in an LJ abortion discussion community and she told me that about a year ago, they had a very similar (down to details, rhetoric, etc.) set of posts in which some girl claimed she had been repeatedly raped by a male family member over a series of years and that she too had been forced to have abortions and that she wished she had a baby so she could have "evidence" of his abuse. Someone finally had enough of this bizarre story, had it looked into, and the whole thing was an entire fabrication from start to finish by some crazy Catholic prolifer whacko. It seems this is one of their tactics. They go on the internet, find forums where abortion and choice are discussed and pull this sob story act in order to influence people.

It's obscene.

Look at Paige's most recent post -- she wants choice, and she's really only fighting for higher standards at clinics, but "I'm justifying my poor decision by lashing out at other rape victims". If she wants choice and is only about safer abortions, then why is my decision "poor"? On the one hand, she wants me to have the choice because she realizes the decision is a valid one, but on the other (and in most of her posts), she's telling me a I made a bad decision, I killed my baby and I'll regret it, abortion is murder and it's wrong, blah blah blah.

She claims I'm lashing out at other rape victims, but that's not true. I didn't lash out at you or at any other hypothetical victims. I have always maintained that each woman is her own person and must make this choice for herself, especially in rape and abuse situations when the choice to become pregnant was taken away from her. How's that lashing out at other rape victims?

She comes here and claims my feelings, opinions and decisions aren't valid, that she can look into her crystal ball and see that I don't really feel or believe the things I say I do. Hell, she knows everything about everyone and can decide for them!

But she's not really anti-choice because she wants the abortion clinics to stay open...

Well, if she wants them to stay open and she thinks abortion is murder and women who have abortions are all going to regret it later and abortionists are all money-grubbing, greedy, heartless people who are preying on rape and abuse victims, who does she want to go to them?

Her story is so full of shit and her posts are so contridictory it's a joke!

All she wants is to come here and harrass and berate rape victims into capitulation.

Well, she's said what she's had to say and she hasn't changed my mind. She's only made me even more convinced that we need to fight for choice.

Paige

Zube Girl,

Your post was appreciated because you realize that abortion is not a black and white issue. I don't think it should be made illegal, I just want better standards of care. I want abortionists to be required to report child rape rather than profit from it.

The world is not a nice place and bad things happen to people all the time. I don't think that its very compassionate to call any sexual abuse victim a liar simply because it may be hard for someone who's never lived through it to understand the depths of depravity that pedophiles live in.

Zube Girl

Well, dayum. If I'd have known my entire post would've been ignored, I'd likely have pared it down to one paragraph instead of fifteen.

Why do I always get ignored here? I'm not asking that in any kind of, "Oh feel sorry for me, I have something to say WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH" kind of way. I'm serious. How come, no matter what I say here, it is glazed over like yesterday's doughnut?

Interesting...

Paige

Jillian,

If you must know, I started my period when I was 11 and I was raped from the age of 13 until now. Yes, Einstein, I had my period in order to get pregnant.

I started working in the clinic when I was 19. And I REALLY DON'T CARE IF YOU BELIEVE ME OR NOT simply because you tell yourself whatever lie you need to in order to get through the night. Before I knew Zelda, I had NO courage to stand up to my rapist at all. I had resigned myself to being his victim and it was not an easy thing to talk about.

I do have a lawyer working to prosecute my rapist and it is a very complex situation. In REAL life most sexual abuse cases are, especially if they occurred over a long period of time. And the minute my daughter is born, he is going to be paying child support for her.

Grow the fuck up Jillian and stop trying to justify your poor decisions by lashing out at other rape victims.

Jillian

Good God, Paige, get a grip.

BTW, have you prosecuted this man now that you have this evidence?

You say you were raped as a child and had many abortions as a result -- you must have been old enough to be menstruating for all these pregnancies to occur which means you weren't exactly a little toddler when all this supposedly happened. You were also old enough to be working at this abortion clinic while this supposedly happened, which means you had to be at least 18. That's an adult. Yet you still didn't report these supposed crimes and stop your supposed rapist.

I already said I've never been to an abortion clinic, but you seem to have disregarded that. Please get your facts straight.

Is "Zelda" helping you prosecute your rapist? You seem to think abortion providers should, but since "Zelda" is so all-fired anti-abortion and agrees that you have been criminally assaulted many times, I hope she has gotten you in touch with the proper authorities. The statute of limitations obviously hasn't passed since you're still pregnant with the rapists' child, which means the last time he raped you was less than a year ago.

I'm not pissed at you because you think your choice is best for you and other women may share that belief. I'm pissed at you because you refuse to accept that my choice was best for me and other women share this belief.

I never once called you a baby-factory for the pro-life movement. I called anyone who insisted I ought to be forced to continue a pregnancy that was forced upon me against my will a person who looked at me as a baby-factory for the prolife movement. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?

When did I say I didn't think we needed laws requiring obvious sex abuse against minors to be reported? Of course I think anyone should report any suspected cases of rape or abuse. I also think any girl who has been raped and requires an abortion be able to have one without an adult preventing her from having one.

I never said I didn't care about child rape with no consequence for the rapist at all. What a completely unfounded lie on your part! If I didn't believe in consequences for the rapist, why would I have gone through with prosecuting my rapist? I believe very strongly in consequences for the rapist, hence mine is in jail. Uh, where's yours again...? "Zelda" helping you get your evidence and case together, is she...?

I'm not calling you a liar because you don't share my beliefs. I'm calling you a liar because your story has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.

Do what you want. I'm not going to stop you. I'm not even going to suggest you do anything else. I am only going to suggest you do what is best for you and ask that you allow other women the same choice.

This is a complete waste of time. Whatever you/Zelda are, it's not grounded in reality at all and I have no time to waste arguing with a broken record. You haven't listened to anyone else, so why should anyone bother to listen to your totally unbelievable garbage?

Paige

Jillian,

Zelda has never called any post-abortive woman a baby killer. Bottom line is this - Zelda nor I nor your baby raped you and you alluding to me as being no better than a rapist is cruel and unneccessary. You are no better than the man who raped me as a CHILD. You were at least old enough to get help. Zelda has spent countless hours going over the things that happened to me with me and NEVER once has she called me a baby killer or a rapist or a whore. She knows that the man who did those things to me shoulders 100 % of the blame. Zelda has never been anything but compassionate and understanding, even though we think very differently on the issue of abortion. She knew I wanted this baby more than anything and she got me out of the situation I was in.She lives her beliefs more so than any abortionist I've ever known. It's funny to me that you call me a baby factory for the pro-life movement, yet abortionists are the ones who prefer that little girls keep getting pregnant by not prosecuting their rapists when they know damn well that a crime took place.

Fine- You let abortionists exploit and capitalize on your pain all you want. I'm glad you don't care what they think of you because I can guarantee you it isn't much. Abortionists look at the women coming in to pay for their services as less than human. Believe me, I know. But don't get pissed at me because I happen to think that there might be a better way to go than abortion. You can say you care about women all you want, but if you really did you would be willing to concede that there should at least be standards and inspections of these so- called "safe and legal" clinics. And you would also concede that rather than have the 13 year old little girl keep getting raped, the abortionists would be REQUIRED (as all physicians but abortionists are) to report cases of child rape to the authorities. You know as well as I do that they don't want to lose their repeat clientele. But wait, you did say that you don't care how they make their money, which REALLY proves my point about you not giving a damn about girls in the first place.How can you say that I'm as bad as a rapist when YOU'RE the one condoning child rape with no consequence for the rapist? All I'm asking is that rapists be held accountable, not an unreasonable request. Thank you for telling every pedophile everywhere that fucking little girls is acceptable as long as the babies they conceive are killed.

I have never said that I was speaking for all rape survivors. I speak from very bad experiences and if I can save just one woman and her baby from the pain, hurt, and isolation of an abortion, then all of the harassment I endure from idiots like you is worth it. Just because you don't understand me seeing my baby as a baby does not mean you have the right to call me a liar about being raped.I saw everyone of my babies as a baby even though their father was a monster.

I have never said that I wanted to illegalize abortion, I just want laws in place requiring facilities and abortionists to be licensed and I want the couselling to be more informative.

When you CHOOSE to become pregnant, I hope you treat your child with more respect if he or she happens to disagree with you over some subject. Being a parent is about compromise and rarely is an issue all black or all white, most are gray. I'm starting to think that maybe abortion really was the right choice for you, not because your baby deserved to die, but because some people would make really lousy parents, Jillian. You have done nothing but attack me and insult Zelda because you can't even formulate a good argument.

Zube Girl

Reading these comments has made me a little sad. Seriously. I feel as though I should diffuse the malicious direction that they've taken somehow. Not to be all koombaya about it, but in my ideal world, survivors of rape would support one another for being SURVIVORS because rape is a horrible and ugly thing. And discussions between them would not denigrate to comparing one another to rapists for what each decided to do with the resulting pregnancy.

Just for the record, as I've stated before, I am a survivor of rape who got pregnant and had an abortion as a result, and I know that I made the best choice for me. FOR ME. Ten years have gone by, and I don't regret it. I would also support, without a doubt, any friend of mine who, goddess forbid, was in the same situation and decided not to terminate her pregnancy. My primary concern is CHOICE. I will defend, until my dying day, the right of women to make choices regarding reproduction. Not only in the case of rape, as I'd once thought when I had my abortion. But in most every case. HOWEVER, I will not hate ANYONE whether they agree with me or not.

Any woman should have the right to CHOOSE to HAVE A BABY, or NOT TO. If a woman chooses to have her baby, I support that 100%. I think that as a Pro-Choice advocate, my belief that pregnant women should be supported even in the least ideal of situations, is disregarded. It is easier to portray me as a cold and malicious believer of murder. I am not Pro-Abortion. I do not think that all rape survivors, or all pregnant teens, or all mothers who have more children than they can afford already, or all mothers who *INSERT SITUATION HERE* should have an abortion. I believe that all potential/mothers should have a CHOICE.

The situation I happen to be most familiar with, due to experience, is a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result of rape. I would never presume to know what is best for ANY survivor, but myself. When a woman is raped, her choice to have or not to have sex is denied. If she ends up getting pregnant, her choice to have, or not to have a baby SHOULD NOT BE DENIED.

I have a few things I'd like to say to the active participants of this discussion. I'm going to address you all in the order that you entered into the discussion on this post, so as not to seem partial to anyone.

Paige- You have experienced some of the most horrid shit I can imagine. I was tempted not to believe you either, but I know that disgusting things happens to humans every day, and I'm simply not privy to it. People lock their kids in cages and their own neighbors don't know, so how can I say with certainty that your story is not true. I can't. I'd like to say it wasn't because it would ease my mind to think that something that happened to me once, couldn't happen to someone over and over and over again. But then I realize that it would only make *me* feel better to write you off as a liar. So, I will believe you. I admire you for surviving what you did.

I am so sorry that you were not given a choice about terminating your pregnancies. I was. My parents told me that I could do whatever I wanted. And they would love me and support me no matter what. You did not have that luxury, and for that I am sorry. You should have been able to choose to continue your pregnancies if that is what you wanted. Your story is a painful one, and I wish ALL THE BEST to you and your daughter. I seriously do. You are in the process of taking your life back, and that is an incredibly difficult task.

Jillian- You and I essentially did the same thing, and obviously neither of us regrets it. I understand your anger. I've read Paige's comments before, and often gotten the impression that she was speaking for *all* survivors of rape who'd gotten pregnant as a result. That's what actually prompted me to post comments on this blog. I was like, "Oh, hey...I've got another unique voice in this argument, and I should share it, because I don't need other folks speaking for me and/or my beliefs." I appreciate you coming out and sharing your story. Believe me, I know how tough it is. Particularly when your choices and beliefs are being dissected. I so feel ya there.

I never prosecuted my rapist. Before anyone says anything about that, the folks at the clinic told me they would save the evidence of my abortion for five years in case I changed my mind before the statute of limitations expired. They encouraged me to prosecute, but understood when I said, "I don't have enough bruises, and it would just be my word against his." Anyway, Jillian, I am so proud and in awe that you had the courage to do what I did not. I hope that as time goes by, more and more women feel empowered enough to hold offenders responsible for what they did. You are one helluva strong woman, and I honor you for that.

Zelda- You have taken in Paige, and to me that shows that you put your actions where your ideology is. We will never, ever agree on this issue, I'm sure, and I've found some of your comments unnecessarily brash and inflammatory, but you stand behind what you believe in with your actions and not just words. You are doing a wonderful thing for Paige, and I am compelled to commend you for it.

One last thing. I don't understand all of this hype about abortionists just wanting to make money. Suffice it to say that I would not want to go to a clinic that was providing abortions for free. I get paid to book ski groups. In the grand scheme of things, taking a ski vacation is NOT all that important. But, I get paid a decent amount to arrange it for people. Given the importance of having someone operate on my reproductive organs and ensuring my ability to get pregnant in the future, I'd prefer to be operated on by someone who was being paid for her or his time. I also find it entirely fair that they be compensated monetarily for the fact that they are quite possibly risking their lives to do so.

I do not doubt one bit that 99% of the women and men who perform abortions care about the reproductive health of the women they provide care for. That would all change if abortion were made illegal and desperate women had to seek abortions in back alleys. But now that abortion is legal, we can depend on compassionate care from qualified doctors. Doctors who wear bullet proof vests to the office every day, so that they can do their jobs.

Abortion is far, far less costly than giving birth, which I've researched a bit through friends and on the internet. To the best of my knowledge, giving birth averages around $4,000 to $5,000, barring complications. I don't see anyone calling OB's moneygrubbers.

Anyway, I think the argument that those who perform abortions are simply money-hungry is probably one of the emptiest Pro-Life arguments out there, and if I were still Pro-Life, I probably wouldn't propagate it.

If you've managed to read all of this, you deserve a medal or something.

Jillian

You have alluded to the fact that I "killed my baby" several times under either of your psuedonyms.

The fact is there is no need to separate the child from the rapist. The alien child is lodged in the victim, and it is she from whom it must be separated. And that can be done quite easily, thankfully.

The fact is you have no right to forcibly impregnate women and force them to carry children against their will. This is what you want to do to perfectly innocent women who don't think like you, who don't share your feelings or beliefs and who don't have any of these terrible consequences you claim they do.

You harrass them and browbeat them and then, after you've pissed them off enough by refusing to see them as anything but some rapists' incubator, you say their anger is because they had an abortion when the truth (something you haven't the slightest acquaintance with) is that they're not at all. And the second they are "silent no more" and tell the truth about their abortions, people like you do anything to shut them up because your agenda is more important than the truth and more important than the very real lives of very real women who have the right to CHOOSE when they become pregnant and have children, and have the right to choose with whom they will become pregnant.

You don't want to give them this choice. You want to force strange women you don't know into violently begotten pregnancies and then into childbearing.

Why do I care what an abortionist cares? What makes you think I give a damn what any doctor anywhere thinks? An abortionist or a doctor provides a service. I opt to take advantage of that service or not. What an abortionist thinks has nothing to do with the fact that raped women have the right to choose to rid themselves of the baby that was forced into them against their will.

God, but you are truly, truly stupid.

Zelda

You didn't answer my question. When did I call you a baby killer?

The horrible fact is that you can't separate a child from a rapist. The fact that no one in the abortion industry is even remotely concerned with helping women recover from this delusion is telling. It does a woman no good to realize long after the deed is done that the baby didn't deserve the ultimate punishment. By the time that occurs, the abortionist has counted his money and abandoned his pretentions and women are left with nothing but pain and confusion. But why should an abortionist care? The more confused women are about their own sexuality and reproductive capabilities, the more money abortionists stand to make. It's an industry that thrives on crimes against women - rape, abuse, child molestation, prostitution - any situation that will bring them repeat customers.

Jillian

Um, well, then how come I did have the abortion and he was held accountable and is sitting in jail right now and you're having the baby and your supposed rapist never was held accountable...?

Do you not see how ridiculous you are? Do you not see that this lie you keep spreading that the only way to hold your rapist accountable is to have his baby is just that -- a lie? Having a baby is not the only physical evidence that a rape took place. Does this mean that women who don't become pregnant from rape can't prosecute their rapists because there's no evidence? Don't be stupid. There's plenty of evidence -- DNA, eyewitnesses, security camera tapes, etc. You realy aren't living in reality, are you? Your words are also quite irresponsible. You are telling any girl reading this who has been raped yet not gotten pregnant that she shouldn't bother accusing her rapist and holding him accountable because there's no evidence. AAMOF, pregnancy is the least likely bit of physical evidence ever to come into play during a rape trial. Which you would know had you truly been raped, reported it, undergone an exam and gone to trial. But you weren't and you didn't, so you don't know anything.

Rapists could care less if you get pregnant or not. These comments about fulfilling rapists' fantasies are yet another way I know you're full of crap. Rape is a crime of violence and hate. The rapist isn't thinking any farther than the rape itself. No woman who was truly raped would say the things you say or think the things you think. You can't agree to have sex with someone, agree to have the abortions, feel guilty later and then call it rape.

I'm not telling rapists it's okay. I am the woman who had the courage to bring her rapist to trial and have him convicted, remember? The only coward here is you, and the only one who went along with her supposed rapists' wishes was you, as you have stated over and over again.

I suggest you speak to a rape counsellor if you never heard of an abortionist who provides services for free under certain circumstances. You obviously aren't acquainted with the first thing when it comes to real rape and really holding rapists' accountable. What the abortionist you worked for in aiding and abetting him in his abortionist did has no bearing on what my situation was. I didn't go to an abortion clinic. I went to a doctor in private practice. See? There's a whole wide world out there that's bigger than the weird, convoluted, made-up reality you've got going on in your head.

I'm hardly full of hate and misogyny. I have never tried to put a negative spin on this supposed decision in this fairy tale you've concocted. I have never told a woman she has no choice after she's been raped. That would be you/Zelda. You want to forcibly impregnate women and force them to carry those babies. And you call this loving women? Promoting rape and forced childbearing? You're a very diseased and disturbed person, Zelda/Paige.

Cue "Zelda".

Paige

Jillian,
Zelda helped me when I had absolutely NO ONE to help me. I really do not care if you believe anything I say or not. As I stated before, you are no better than the man who raped me since the age of 13 because you do exactly as he did- you call me a liar and then demand that I destroy all evidence that he ever fucked me. And someone who rapes (or murders) a child is the absolute lowest of the low.

I will not apologize to you or anyone because I view my children as human beings regardless of how their conception took place. My daughter deserves to live in a society that will hold men who rape children and women accountable for it rather than letting them have abortion as an out. When you abort a child conceived by one of those bastards, you are telling others like him that it's okay to rape and abuse girls because he'll never be held accountable. My rapist would give anything to have my daughter murdered because she is actual PHYSICAL evidence that he raped me. Don't think that you didn't fulfill every rapists fantasy by aborting your child.

You are the one who hates women because you are telling every rapist that his actions are okay because you'll just kill any child conceived through that act. Abortionists are the child molesters best friend. Tell me, since you are so enlightened, WHY don't abortionists report sex crimes against children? It's because it's better for their bank account to allow the 13 year old little girl to keep getting raped. They view people like me as repeat clientele. You aren't even a person to them. And BTW, I have NEVER heard of a pro-bono abortionist. I really think that you made that up. The abortionist I workes for NEVER did free abortions, except once on the anniversary of Roe vs. Wade and they were only free for 1st trimester MEDICAID patients. What does that tell you? They were poor, minority women whose children he didn't feel worthy of life. He was celebrating the day that made him a God in his own mind and made genocide legal.

I would rather be from the white trashiest trailer park family than ever be as full of hate and misogyny as you are.

Jillian

Zelda/Paige, I never said pregnancy dehumanizes me or anyone else. Apparently they didn't teach you to read at the trailer park.

I said your rhetoric dehumanizes me. I said refusing a woman autonomy over her body dehumanizes her.

Pregnancy in the case of rape absolutely demeans a woman. Her body has been stolen. Her DNA has been stolen. Her autonomy has been stolen. Her peace of mind has been stolen.

And you call this prolife -- procreation via force.

This is what you support. You support procreation via rape. You support violently forced pregnancies on unsuspecting, innocent women who chose to have no part in them. This is a good thing according to you. You like this. You want to see more of this. You will fight to see that these pregnancies are forced on rape victims. This is what makes you happy.

And you're having a problem with my position...?

You have shown nothing but contempt for rape victims unless they make the choice you insist they have to make to satisfy you.

You are anti-woman and pro-rape.

Therefore you are less than zero as far as I'm concerned. You're a rapist at heart. You and your pro-rape, pro-forced procreation, anti-woman, anti-innocence agenda can piss off now. You've shown yourself for the abusing, raping, hating selfish pig you really are.

Zelda

Jillian, LOL! You're as judgmental as a Baptist preacher. We're all getting quite a laugh at your language.

But seriously, I could say I don't believe your story, but what purpose would it serve? You can no more disprove my story than I can yours, so why bother? If people are pro-life, they will believe Paige and me. If they're are pro-death, they will believe you.

Our url is the same because Paige is living with me until she has the baby. We have both stated this. Whether you choose to believe it is immaterial.

But I have never once called you a baby killer and I suggest you show some proof before you make that accusation. I reserve that term for abortionists who capitalize on the rape of women and murder of children.

And if you think a pregnancy "dehumanizes" you, you might as well turn in your ovaries now. The only people who look down on women for having babies - for whatever reason - are pro-abortionists. The opinion that a woman is subjugating herself to a rapist simply because she refuses to kill an innocent child is what's dehumanizing. Paige is refusing to hold the baby accountable for her situation. That takes courage, especially when there are people like you who would look down on her for it and thousands of abortionists, foaming at the mouth, vacuums in hand, waiting to take her money and make sure she's not "dehumanized" by an innocent child.

Jillian

*refuse to see me....

And, btw, I think anyone who claims she has been abused and raped as horrifically as you have and who then makes it a point to harrass another rape victim over a series of several days and under two usernames is a psychopath. And even if this ludicrous story were true, it's not rape if you stay there, agree to it, and do everything the guy says when you have dozens and dozens of opportunities to stop it.

Jillian

I have no problem with the word "whore" when appropriately applied. Again, you make assumptions about me when you don't know me. You're very good at dehumanizing other women, aren't you? You do realize this is essentially self-loathing behavior, right?

I am not sensitive to foul language when appropriately used, either.

In both cases, the situation is appropriate. You are a very sleazy and cheap sort of person, and your insistance on attacking other women deserves foul language.

I don't believe you, Paige/Zelda. The tag-teamed responses and the identical IP numbers with the convenient excuse that this Paige persona is living with you as a result of her bizarre and unlikely story send up too many red flags, as does her insistance that the only evidence of rape is a resulting pregnancy and that one can only prosecute a rapist if one has his baby. That's a very, very strange outlook, and ridiculously uninformed in the year 2005. Your posts under both psuedonyms are rife with half-assed bits of previously aired propaganda, and parroted rhetoric. It is obvious you don't even bother to see the other person's side and only enter into any discussion to spout your thoughtless, moronic, uninformed crap at people.

People are allowed to be prolife around me if they are truly prolife. If you care about life, you care about all life. Very few prolifers care about anything but their agenda. You are the poster child for this type of prolifer.

Being prochoice is not being proabortion. You have no idea what my position on abortion outside of rape, incest and the health of the mother is. Once again, you continue to see me as a whole person with opinions, feelings, and experiences of my own and insist I fall into a set of very narrow categories because I won't change my position. Just one more instance of you dehumanizing another woman because she won't agree with you.

I don't believe "Paige/Zelda" is anything but a phony set of personae under which you manipulate and attack any woman who has had an abortion for whatever reason.

You chose to come to a place where women who have had abortions ought to feel safe. You chose to come to a place where women who have very real stories (as opposed to the load of bullshit "Paige/Zelda" has come up with) and have had very real experiences and attack them and call them baby-killers and dehumanize them and completely ignore who they are and what they have been through. Are you really so stupid as to think this is a way to get people to see your side? Don't answer that. The answer is obvious. You're an idiot and you do more harm to the prolife side than good.

You have continued to insist I feel things I don't feel, that you "know" I feel these things even when I continue to say I most certainly do not, and to force your propaganda down my throat. You obviously don't give a damn about anyone but your sleazy, tacky, cheap, low-class self and your stupid, ignorant, heartless, uninformed position.

You have made your position clear. Why you continue to come here to harrass other women is beyond me. You only make more women realize that the prolife position is a complete sham and that prolifers only care about getting attention for themselves and putting other women down.

What possible good do you think you've done here? Absolutely none.

Zelda

LOL. For someone who is so sensitive to foul language, you sure don't hesitate to use it. I said I wasn't religious. If my blog was filled with nothing but pious rants, you'd freak out about that too. Basically, no one is allowed to be pro-life around you and you refuse to listen to any other opinion to the extent that you would cruelly insult another rape victim.

I don't care what you say about me. I think it's funny when pro-abortionists, who so dislike the stigma of "whore," have no problem using the term whenever they feel like it. The hypocrisy is amusing. But your sense of humor seems to have been aborted along with the baby.

All that being said, however, likening a sexual abuse victim to a rapist is abhorrent even by pro-abortionist standards.

Paige

Jillian,
When I worked for the abortionist I worked for, I did a whole lot more than aiding and abetting. I had an entire website that was designed to tell the world how compassionate he was from the mouth of a former patient. I did several interviews and debates supporting and telling the world what a great man he was.

I never said I wanted to force any woman to do anything. All I want is for women to think before they make a choice. I wasn't always given the option of making my own choice. This current pregnancy is the only pregnancy in which I was able to make my own choice and I could not have done it without Zelda. I do not seek out to harass or hurt people, I have had some pretty bad life experiences and if something I say can make one woman change her mind and not abort her baby, then I'm happy. I'm not going to sit here and say that every woman has the same reaction to abortion, I don't even think it should be made illegal. Zelda and I differ on that because I remember how I felt as a 13 year old little girl who felt she had no other way out. But that abortion was the start of a very bad path in life for me. I didn't have any support or love from my parents. The thing is, I know from working in the clinic where I worked that abortionists lobby very hard to keep any law that would subject them to any type of regulation or inspection from passing. Can you at least agree with me that there should be guidelines to protect women's safety?

Jillian

Oh, puhleeze...!!!

You call abortionists baby-killers, but when you were working for an abortionist you weren't aiding and abetting this same baby-killing you're freaking out about now?

For someone who's all upset because she was supposedly forced for years and years to do all kinds of horrible things she didn't want to do, you're sure real convinced you have the right to force another woman in the same situation to do something she finds abhorrant. That's very, very strange.

Your anger is about your own failure to stop what was happening to you, yet you claim that I did what my rapist wanted me to do. You sure did a lot of things for a lot of years that you claim your rapist wanted you to do. Who are you angry at? You for failing to stick up for yourself or me for actually taking control, prosecuting my rapist, and reclaiming my body?

If being forced to do all these horrible things against your will is something you think is a terrible wrong, why are you trying to force other women to do things against their will?

Whether you're in Zelda mode or Paige mode, your message is very mixed. You claim to stick up for the right to do what you decide for your body, but you refuse anyone else that same right and want to force them to do only what you say is alright.

You then use that same old bullshit where you claim to know what other people's real feelings are even though you don't know them and aren't trained in any kind of psychology. This may work in your trailer park where people sit around watching Oprah and Dr. Phil while they're waiting for their welfare check, but it doesn't work with real people living in the real world. Plus, continuing to insist you know anything about me and claiming I'm lying when I say I know what my feelings are is a complete dehumanization of myself and women who've chosen as I have. You don't see us. You only see an opportunity to harrass someone and spout your dumbed-down, one-dimenesional, bullshit, half-assed propaganda.

Paige

Jillian,
I just read the last post you had directed at me and fuck you is all I have to say. Fuck you because you have NO idea with the kind of man I lived with from the age of 13. Fuck you because you don't know what it's like to be raped several times a day in every way possible. Fuck you because you don't know what it's like to be forced to abort pregnancies that resulted from the rapes. Fuck you because you don't know what it's like to have your rapist TRY to impregnate you just so he could make you abort. Fuck you because you will never know what it's like to work for an abortionist and have people call your house all day and night telling you that you are a baby killer when they have NO idea what you've already been through. Fuck you for telling me that I, at the age of 13, SHOULD have gotten help from an adult. My own parents didn't even have their shit together enough to raise me, they gave legal guardianship to someone who is a complete monster.

But most of all, fuck you for doing what every child molester does to his victim- calls her a liar and wants all evidence he ever fucked her ( pregnancy) taken away.

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