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Friday, September 09, 2005

Comments

GKP

DP,

I realize that this exchange took place some time ago, but I happened upon it when I was "Googling" for Trisomy 13 sites. I just want to say that I have a 19-year-old daughter with Partial Trisomy 13 (i.e., most of the long arm of the chromosome is triplicated). She walks, talks, reads fluently and with comprehension on about a 5th-grade level (which is better than many "normal" people I know), writes neatly in cursive, can perform the 4 basic arithmetic operations, tell time, and count money. She plays on a "machine pitch" special needs baseball team and is soon to begin job training. Why is this significant? Because, though the death rate for trisomy 13 children is very high, I personally know many long-term survivors (with full, partial, and mosaic forms of this condition). One would most likely be unaware that there are long-term trisomy 13 survivors, such as my daughter, if one listened strictly to the medical community, particularly those who perform abortions. My daughter has had some surgeries but came through with flying colors each time. Even of the many families I know who carried one of these little ones to term and experienced the sadness of their passing, I've heard story after story of the joy of just getting to hold their child even briefly and offer comfort care, if that's all that could be offered. Thank you for allowing a parent who knows trisomy 13 "firsthand" to speak.

Paige

Jillian,
My daughter will indeed be born with free will (as we all are), but I will never turn her over to an abortionist, period.She will be taught that life is a gift.Her father raped me and he is the most vile human being on earth, but I don't hold him against her.Being raped is a terrible thing, I know that.But, even from a medical standpoint, abortion is not healthy or good for women.

Diatryma

This isn't doing anyone any good. We aren't working from the same information at all.
I'm sorry for what has happened to you. I'm sorry you didn't get a choice. I hope you will allow me my choice, whatever it may be. I hope your labor is swift and painless, that your life and your daughter's life are uncomplicated, and that she is never hurt the way you were hurt.

I am happy you have finally been given the opportunity to choose what to do with your body. I'm glad you have decided what is right for you in this situation and have been able to act on it.

May we all have such opportunity.

Jillian

Your daughter will make her own choices and there's nothing you can do about it.

Paige

I will NEVER turn my daughter over to an abortionist.She will be taught from day one that life is a precious gift.I don't plan on tainting her with my own personal experiences unless I absolutely have to.From medical aspects alone, abortion is harmful to women.I just have a problem with unlicensed, unregulated medical procedures.

Diatryma

The writers here do not seem to be heartless mercenaries.
I'm sorry you were abused. If your daughter is hurt in the same way, will you allow her to have an abortion if she wants one? Not 'will you force her as you were forced', not 'will you raise her to hate herself' but will you let her make her choice?
Also, the bioethicists I know are fond of saying that there are no licensing procedures for fertility clinics, either. I haven't looked into it.
I'm sorry you have been treated so badly, abused by everyone who should have taken care of you. But another person in the same horrible situation should be able to choose what she wants, not what you wanted. I hope your daughter never has to face such a choice. I hope you never do again.

Paige

Any baby that is conceived as the result of a rape is just as much of a victim of his father as his mother is.The man who raped me since I was 13 is the most vile human being I have ever known and he is also the father of the daughter I am going to have in about a week (or less).Even though I hate him, I have never once thought of killing my daughter.
I wish women would see abortion for the enslavement that it is.Every time a woman aborts a baby, its like saying that men can treat us however they want to-rape us, have irresponsible sex, and there will be no consequences.And the abortionist just propogates that further by hiding it under a cloak of "independence" and "freedom" from men.The abortionists do not report cases of rape or child rape BECAUSE THEY AREN'T HELD TO ANY OF THE STANDARDS THAT A REGULAR DOCTOR IS (hell, they don't even have to BE doctors to do abortions) because abortion is the only unregulated medical procedure.A veterinary clinic is subject to more laws than an abortion clinic.The man who did my abortions, George Tiller, recently had his political action committee (ProKanDo) lobby for several days in Topeka to block a bill that would have subjected abortion clinics in Kansas to regular state inspections.Governor Sebelius vetoed that bill and as a result, a teenager from Texas named Christen Gilbert DIED from sepsis as a result of his inadequate "medical skills".Yet, because Tiller has made so much money by killing babies and women , no one on KS Board of Healing Arts will even make a recommendation to revoke his medical license (which, BTW, is to practice DERMATOLOGY, he's not even an ob/gyn) because he has the state on his payroll.And that is one of the more (if not the most) "reputable" abortionists in this country.If it doesn't make them money (and women and young girls who are raped make them a boatload of money), then they can't be bothered to do it.Reporting sex crimes would cut into their pocketbooks, so they figure that its best to let the 13 year old rape victim keep getting raped and coming in for abortions, they turn the cold shoulder all the way to the bank.

Diatryma

Paige, what has happened to you is what we are trying to prevent from happening to others. You have been raped and abused, and someone should have protected you.
You said you have been impregnated by him eleven times, and this is the only one you were not forced to terminate. Your right to choose was stripped from you; you were forced to do something with your body you did not want to do. I'll fight for your right to keep a pregnancy because you choose to do so. I know very few people that wouldn't. But the fact that you could not safely choose does not give you the right to demand that others be forbidden the same choice.
I'm sorry you didn't get a choice. I hope you're in a better situation, one where you can choose to do whatever you want with your body. I hope the man who hurt you so badly is unable to hurt you or anyone else. I hope you, and everyone else in the world, gets to have a choice forever.

Paige

I did not say that a pregnancy is the only way to prove a rape took place.if you must know, i was with a man since i was 13 (who was supposed to be my legal guardian) and he raped me repeatedly and also impregnated me 11 times.i am due to have a baby in 10 days or less and he is the father.i hate him, but i love my daughter.this is the only pregnancy that i haven't been forced to terminate by him.don't you ever judge me until you've walked in my shoes.

Jillian

And a baby isn't "all the evidence that a crime took place". What a stupid, ignorant thing to say. The only way we convict rapists is if they forcibly impregnate their victims? What planet are you living on? Ever hear of DNA evidence? I don't believe you anymore. You couldn't possibly have been raped if you think the only evidence that convicts a rapist is a resulting baby. You're just another prolife crazy who wants to control, brutalize and victimize women, rape them, force them to carry babies against their will, and treat them like objects.

Jillian

Women like you who protect and support rape and violence by refusing to allow rape victims to choose not to carry a child they were forcibly impregnated with are as bad as the rapists themselves. You made your choices. Allow other women to make theirs. Just because you have regrets, don't you dare to assume everyone will. You're not everyone. Your opinions and feelings are not the deciding factor in other people's lives.

Forcing women to carry children against their will is sick and evil. You can't dehumanize a woman by usurping her body for your ends. That's wrong.

You don't force people to do things with their bodies that they don't want to do. You don't steal a woman's body to use like it's an object. Forcing childbearing on women against their will is stealing women's bodies to use as objects.

The whole point of CHOICE is that you get to make your choices and I get to make mine. Stop taking away my body. Stop taking away my choices. Stop trying to treat rape victims like they're not even human beings. Stop trying to further victimize and use women against their will.

Paige

Jillian,
What about the baby's choice?I had an abortion when I was 13 performed by George Tiller when I was 33 weeks pregnant.I also had a child when I was 18 that I gave up for adoption.Both of those pregnancies were the result of rape.I can tell you that while giving my daughter up for adoption was really hard, its much harder for me to live with the knowledge that my first baby ended up in Tiller's crematorium.I will have the guilt until the day I die.
We, as a society, don't sentence rapists to death, so why sentence the INNOCENT babies to death?Abortionists are the rapists best friend-the rapist dehumanizes and victimizes you once and the abortionist does it again by destroying all evidence that a crime took place.

Jillian

Shevon, ever hear of rape? I guess raped and forcibly impregnated women don't get a choice, right?

Diatryma

That's what I see this as being about, Tony; this is about the specific cases. Rather than being amorphous Women, these are individuals who, for reasons specific and known only to themselves sometimes, decided to end their pregnancies. This blog is about the questions, the reasons, and the reactions, not the politics or the procedure except as it relates to the people.

Tony

One way to value both women and the unborn is to look at reasons why women feel like they must have abortions. Do they not have enough money or resources. Was contraception unavailable. Is there an unnecessary social stigma. I'm baffled that everyone is interested in abortion but no one is interested in these questions.

Shevon

Oops. "lie" was not supposed to be in quotes. I do actually think it's a lie.

Shevon

I don't understand.
Didn't this girl have the choice to stop having sex?
Or to use birth control?

How can any of us believe the "lie" that without the choice of abortion, a woman does not have a choice at all?

I honestly don't understand it.

Paige

DP,
And who are you to say that just because children with a medical condition such as trisomy don't even deserve the chance to live? Just because a child isn't as perfect as you think she should be doesn't mean you have the right to kill her.

DP

"First of all-how do you know that this child is going to have a "sick or impoverished life?" How do you know the child may not beat the odds and overcome his/her environment?"

If you ever see a child "beat the odds" and "overcome" Tay-Sachs, anencephely, trisomy 13 or 18, or similar problems call the Pope, because you've just witnessed a miracle. It doesn't happen. A child born with any of these problems will live a brief life and die in pain.

Paige

I also think that every person has a basic right to live.The abortion industry preys on women in vulnerable situations.

Anne

I don't think anyone is saying that the mother is worth "less" than her child. Both are individual people. I can't say one of my children is worth "less" than another. They simply can't be compared. But both have a right to live their own lives. When we talk about aborting a perfectly healthy pregnancy because of the hardship to the mother in raising another child, we leave out a couple of things. First, her ability to have made other choices before getting pregnant, and thus her own personal responsibility for the life in question. Secondly, the fact that there are other options that don't include her raising the child herself.

I love the feminists of days past. It was Elizabeth Cady Stanton who said "When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."

Rachel

"She and her children may be miserable, sick, or impoverished, they might argue, but at least they would be alive. If there are any pro-lifers out there reading this, I would be interested to hear whether you feel that this is an accruate summation of why you feel it would be immoral for this woman or any other woman to have an abortion, regardless of the cost of having a child to herself and her current child or children."

No matter how you justify abortion it is immoral--even if you want to use the argument of the child living a "miserable" life. First of all-how do you know that this child is going to have a "sick or impoverished life?" How do you know the child may not beat the odds and overcome his/her environment? There are so many stories of people overcoming poverty and adversity. Do you believe that these people should have been aborted? Think about all of the actors, singers, teachers, doctors, and others who have come from the streets, the inner-cities, and from disfunctional families. The have overcome and they have triumphed because they have been given the chance and the right to live. Why do you presume that every child born into these circumstances you are talking about will have a terrible life?

Maybe, instead of killing these children, we should help them. Of course abortion is the easier option--you do not personally have to get your hands dirty. Just leave it up to the abortion clinics. This is the cowards' way out of helping humanity.

Everyone should be given the right to live no matter what the outcome may be. There are many families and children who can be helped--and they need our help. It is a matter of whether or not we are willing to give. It is our fault that people live in terrible conditions. We need to find a way to give to these people and dedicate our lives to helping our neighbors in need.

There is also the option of adoption for mothers who cannot provide for their children. I know many adopted children and they are happy to be alive. If I were to ask them if they would have rather been aborted instead of adopted--I am sure they would they are glad to have been adopted.

Pray for an end to abortion, war, physical and emotional violence, euthanasia, suicide, homocide, the death penalty, and all the other plagues of our world.

Paige

I am currently pregnant by an abusive, violent man.I had nowhere to go.He wanted to kill me and the baby.I was taken in by a Catholic woman and her Buddhist husband.There are plenty of good people out there.BTW. she is pro-life and she knows how many abortions I've had, including the 33 week abortion and she is still my best friend.

Nathan

Usually there's two Catholic Churches an area. There are many stories like the one you shared, Quetzal. One in my family, in fact. The people you called were either hypocritical or genuinely unable to help for one reason or another.

But I would urge against dismissing the entire Church for the mistakes of the people in your parish. Calling a church won't have a 100% success rate, although it should. It's unfortunate but true. But for every parish community that is getting it wrong, there are 2 or 3 or 5 that are getting it right.

Most parishes these days will have somebody who will be in touch with the proper resources to help women in unplanned pregnancies, and will be able to help. Although it's not a sure bet, its a good one. Maybe I should have said "Call two Catholic churches in the area."

Christians aren't perfect, and none claim to be. While their behavior was inconsistent with Christian ideals, it wasn't inconsistent with being Christian (imperfect). It would be if they were unrepentant. Anyway, I hope you'll forgive them one day.

Perhaps you should become pro-life again and do it right. Teach them a lsesson.

God Bless.

Diatryma

That's why I'm pro-choice. I don't know everything about the situation. Can I choose for myself? Yes. Can I choose for someone I don't know? No. All I can do is give her as much information as possible and trust her judgment.

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