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Tuesday, May 17, 2005



Actually, you'd travel from Indiana to Illinois. Illinois has no parental notification law as far as I know.

Its amazing to me that it is illegal for a CHILD (which one is legally until the age of 18) to get a tattoo or piercing without a parent PRESENT,

I don't believe there is a state that doesn't have a parental notification law for minors, tattoos, and piercings.


Leah, are you seriously trying to say here or prove with some right wing groups facts (yes, on either side you can *find* a study to prove any thing you like!) that women weren't abused or poor, or that children were not abused or poor, before Roe v. Wade? You've got to be kidding me, right?

I think living in a society where women have to make this choice is a horrible burden on all of us... but to imply that women making that choice are creating their own poverty and abuse... boy that's a neat little arguement to sit up on a moral high horse from, isn't it?

And incidentally, I think many right wingers would rather see a pregnancy aborted than the child raised by liberals or homosexuals or pagans... or a combination thereof. Yeah, I absolutely do. They consider liberals to be evil, hellbound communists.

There are many, many resources for women who choose to keep their babies... I know, I have a friend who did make that choice, and lived on food stamps and charity for many years because of it. That was her choice and it all worked out beautifully for her in the end, which is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately there is no one size fits all solution here.


I'm really confused about Grace's comment. I was referring to the choice of adoption (as Sarah could tell). I've reread my previous comment, though, and realize I could have been more explicit.

I do understand (I'll admit - only intellectually, as I've never been in the situation) that placing your child up for adoption is a difficult decision to make. It is also a courageous and incredibly generous decision.

But Sarah, when you say you gave up your child after a few weeks rather than rather than nine months because it was easier - that comparison makes me cringe. These two ways of "giving away" your child are quite different. You're saying that you had your child killed rather than allow other people to raise him or her.

(To prefer to have your child killed rather than be raised by people of different religious beliefs - sounds like extremism to me. I certainly can't think of many on the religious right who feel that way. Assumedly you don't believe that all people who do not share your beliefs should be killed. Why your own child? Do you not believe that he or she would have the same ability to choice his or her own beliefs, as you did?)

To respond to Grace's comments, there are numerous pro-life groups who work to make resources available to pregant women and women with children. This is one list: http://www.priestsforlife.org/crisis.html This can actually be an area of fruitful cooperation - both the "pro-life" and "pro-choice" sides of the debate know that there needs to be more support for pregnant women in need. I would be very happy to find more people on the "pro-choice" side arguing for more support for women who do not choose abortion.

It seems to me - and to others: check out http://www.feministsforlife.org - that the advent of the abortion mentality has actually meant less help for pregnant women. The response has more and more been this: "hey, if it's your body and your choice, it's your problem." If the woman has the "option" to have the child killed, why should we pay for it if she decides to keep it? If children are expendable, why should we provide for them? This tragic mindset has, among other things, led to greater child abuse and neglect and the feminization of poverty. (See http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/abortion_and_child_abuse.asp and http://www.afterabortion.info/poverty.html)


"I'd like to point out that giving birth to a child and raising a child are two different things (in response to Laura's comment). Why is it that I hear so many pro-choicers completely ignore this choice?"

HUH? I'd like to hear the "Life begins at conception and ends at birth" "pro-life" crowd acknowledge this!! They want all women who get pregnant to have the child and raise it; they seem to think that women can just snap their fingers and summon up the resources, support, and sanity to spend 18 years caring for another human being, when they have no job, no insurance, and no help.


Having a baby still costs time and money, which, some people do not have. Pre-natal care is expensive without health insurance, and some people can't afford it (as was my situation). Also adoption is difficult as hell emotionally, you have to hold onto this baby for 9 months then give it away. I prefered to give it away after only a few weeks. I thought about adoption but I couldn't find an agency in my area that could give me an open adoption, pay for all my medical expenses plus counseling, and place my child in extremely liberal home, preferably gay and/or pagan. So adoption was out. If pro-lifers really want people to adopt more, then they need to make it a hell of a lot easier and make it fit with my needs instead of approaching it like they're doing me some kind of favor. The two main agencies here were of the "we'll save your baby and put it in a good conservative Christian home" and that was not even thinkable for this liberal feminist bisexual Neo-Pagan. For both financial and cultural reasons, I couldn't do adoption.


I'd like to point out that giving birth to a child and raising a child are two different things (in response to Laura's comment). Why is it that I hear so many pro-choicers completely ignore this choice?

I'd also like to offer my sympathy for Sara, who has a sibling that she'll never get to know. I know that I miss my lost brother or sister that my parents decided not to keep.


I'm very open with my parents about everything. I've never had sex, let alone been pregnant, but when I do decide to have sex, she'll be the first to know.

If they make abortions illegal, girls will just find other ways to have abortions- kitchen tables and wire hangers, "accidentally" falling down the stairs, jumproping...all ways in which the girls can get seriously injured themselves.

Abortions aren't always bad-my mother had to have one in order to have me! Can you blame her??? My grandmother would have died if she hadn't had an abortion...can you blame her?
Many women have stories similar...can you really sit back, not knowing what it's like, and blame them?

And all these laws effecting underaged people, when they don't even have the right to vote...is it right?
I know that the government is really looking out for the good of my generation, but how can they know how it is? Have they talked to girls my age, with abusive families, with boyfriends that promise the world, after the condom broke, with no one to turn to?
To quote Madonna, do you know what it feels like for a girl in this world?

I've got a dollar if you've got a jar.


Nicole: You are comparing a child with a tattoo? Or a beer? I think that's a little short sighted. How can you say that it's wise to force someone who CAN'T choose to have a beer or get a tattoo to birth and raise a child? That's foolish. Forcing a child to have and raise a child? When she's a child herself? No. That's just wrong.


I don't think there are many teens out there, regardless of how supportive their parents are, that are comfortable talking to them about sex, let alone pregnancy. I know that I wasn't. My parents were completely open and honest with me, extremely supportive, but if I would've gotten pregnant as a teen, it wouldn't have been easy to tell them. That has nothing to do with how supportive or stable the household I grew up in was.


If a teen is alarmed enough by the pregnancy to want to choose abortion, and alarmed enough by the prospect of telling her parents that she doesn't tell them, what makes you think that she comes from a stable and supportive enough environment to successfully raise a child?


Its amazing to me that it is illegal for a CHILD (which one is legally until the age of 18) to get a tattoo or piercing without a parent PRESENT, but please by all means let them concent to an invasive medical procedure ending a life that they have had a part in creating. Don't consider them responsible enough to have a beer legally, make the decision to buy cigarettes, don't let them have plastic surgery, or ANY other medical procedure for that matter, without the parents permission, but let them make on their own without their parent's, one of the biggest decisions of their lives.

I just think it is a little backwards. If kids are responsible enough to do those things, they certainly aren't responsible enough to make the decision to terminate the life of the child they've created.

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