« All Five Feelings | Main | Two great new sites »

Saturday, April 17, 2010

Comments

m to m

Really i appreciate the effort you made to share the knowledge.The topic here i found was really effective to the topic which i was researching for a long time

Julie

Mom - do you have a link to an article or articles about these two cases in Europe? I've tried for years to have an honest debate about abortion. But I've met only one or two pro lifers who cared to meet me halfway. From the rest, I just get rhetoric and/or name-calling.

Kerstin

Nobody should be condemned. Just like the lady in the Faith Aloud video said: Jesus did not come to condemn but to heal that which is broken. He wants to heal you if you're overwhelmed and confused by guilt and grief. He does grieve over the death of your children as well, and he feels with you. Every child is special, and He has a special plan for them.

bonnie moss-rhodes

The answer to the question why infanticide is illegal and abortion under law within prescribed criteria is not, is simple. In an abortion what is terminated is the pregnancy. The pregnancy is maintained by the womans body. It is the woman who carries the demands and risks of the pregnancy as it is her body that sustains the pregnancy and so sustains the embryo/fetus. After birth there is no pregnancy to terminate. The life of the neonate is not dependent on the womans body and there is no longer physical demands on the womans body to sustain it. It no longer is a question of the use of the womans body.

To force a woman to carry a pregnancy or to accept damage to her health and well being against her will in favor of the zygote, embryo, fetus "right to be sustained off of her body is nothing more than slavery.

mom

Ellebeme- you are correct that none of these would be enough for me to have an abortion. Regardless, I'm curious why you or anyone else who is prochoice won't answer my question? Why can't we have an honest debate about this issue?

ElleBeMe

Well, "mom" none of these stories is enough for YOU to have an abortion. You can only decide for yourself.

mom

I have to agree with Paul. While very sad, none of these circumstances warrant abortion (the killing of a human being). I was struck by the two cases in Europe in recent weeks of aborted babies living up to three days after the abortion. In one case 'charges' will be filed for infanticide. I can't for the life of me see how a state can give a woman the right to kill a baby inside of her but once it's 'out' then it is infanticide. This is illogical. At least be consistent in your claims - it's either ok to kill this life or it's not -which is it?

ElleBeMe

Kacie:

The majority of children up for adoption in the US are special-neess children. Few want to adopt a less-than perfect child. In fact the majority want a newborn with no defects....preferably white.

I think condemning a child with special needs to the state is a fate far worse than abortion.

Your mileage may vary.

Kacie

I have a brother with Downs Syndrome. I know, and my parents know, that caring for a kid with special needs is not easy. I would never look down on a woman or a family for saying they simply couldn't care for a special needs kid.

BUT. Why not carry the child and allow someone to adopt it rather than choosing to abort it?

Robin

Such incredibly complex things our lives are. I was married, poor, and still using 3 forms of birth control yet I became pregnant. Responsibility has nothing to do with it sometimes. What offends me most of all is the idea that women come to the decision of abortion lightly. We are not stupid. We feel deeply. We weigh choices. We even see when there is only one choice. And we make hard choices. And live with the consequences. I was in a position to have my son. Some women just are not. I will not judge them because I do not live their lives.

And by the way, God will have mercy on their souls if they ask for it--He's in the mercy business.

Meg

My family's story is almost the reverse of what you mention above. In 1974, my mother got pregnant. She was using birth control pills and condoms, and was living with an abusive man who once threw a rock at her head (she still has the scars). She had just started her first well paying job, and had a plan to save money to finally get away from her abuser when she discovered she was pregnant. Despite knowing that this was a horrible situation to bring a baby into, and that she and the baby would both be in very real danger, she did not immediately consider abortion.

Instead, she went to her new place of employment and asked them if they had a maternity leave policy. They did not, and told her in so many words that they did not cover pre-natal care, and that if she took time off related to the pregnancy, she "could be replaced" - not an empty threat, as a woman working in a male dominated field in the seventies.

So she sought other resources. Again, she was told in no uncertain terms that the only way she could get prenatal care covered would be to quit her new job and go on welfare. She knew that going on welfare would just keep her (and the child) trapped with her abuser.

She went to her doctor (who, for the record, was Catholic) and explained the situation, and asked what he would do. He sighed, thought for a moment, then wrote down some information on the back of a business card. "If you were my daughter," he said, "I would give you this information. What you do with it is up to you." The information was for an abortion clinic. She went, and ultimately, after a lot of thought, had the abortion.

Fast forward 6 years. My mother got back on her feet, met my father at her job (the one she kept thanks to the abortion), fell in love, got married, became pregnant with me. I was born almost five months premature, with cerebral palsy and a host of other issues. My parents adjusted. They learned how to cope. It helped that I was very verbal and fiercely independent, so they rarely had to "guess" about how best to help me. Two years after my birth, they started talking about having another child. Mom went to her doctor and asked what the chances were of having another child with my issues. "Virtually impossible," was the reply. "None of the problems your first child has are genetic."

Reassured, they had another child. My sister was born almost three months premature, with cerebral palsy, mental impairment, autism, and other issues.

At that point, my mother went back to the doctor again and demanded answers. After many exams, some hunting, and some combing of family history, she discovered that she has an incompetent cervix and is a DES (diethylstilbestrol) daughter. Her mother was injected with DES while my mother was in the womb, to "prevent miscarriage." As the drug companies knew, but the doctors did not, DES does nothing of the kind. What it *can* do is affect the development of the fetus - in my mother's case, it affected the development of her reproductive system. The defects she has are virtually impossible to detect... unless she's pregnant, at which point her cervix cannot handle the weight of the fetus.

She took measures to make sure she couldn't get pregnant again. Two disabled children was enough for all of us, particularly since my sister was *not* verbal and needed much closer monitoring than I.

The point of this story? Knowing what we know now, had my mom *not* had that abortion, she would have given birth to *that* child prematurely as well - either on welfare, or with no prenatal care available to her - and thus been raising a *disabled* child in an abusive environment. She had no way of knowing that at the time, but in retrospect, it was the best of a host of difficult options.

Thirty-six years later, I still occasionally find her thinking about the son she almost had. I think of him, too.

ElleBeMe

As a mother of a special needs child and a "normal child" I have to say that I became even more pro-choice after having children of my own. Anti-choicers love to wax poetic about "saving baybeez" and the sanctity of life, but what about the lives of the children already here? I will not need an abortion, for after my 2nd was born I had my tubes tied. If in the unlikely event I were to become pregnant again, it is highly doubtful I would have an abortion, that is if the fetus was perfectly healthy. I couldn't handle two special needs children, so if it showed that my fictional fetus was deformed or chromosomnally abnormal, then I would definitely have an abortion. Having The option is an essential compnent of familial security and prosperity. Force families to have children they cannot have (for whatever reason), and you create a very unhappy household.

Interesstingly enough, when I did have an abortion when I was 19 (well before I was married and had children), one of the women in the waiting area with me was married, had 3 kids and was just able to get her family financially back on track. She had just started a new job, and for the first time in years, she, her husband and three kids had some security. She said that another child would break them all, she would need to leave her job and they would have another mouth to feed, one they could not afford. Women like her are more common than we think - and this was way back in 1995.

It's not just young women who get pregnant and have abortions, married, older women do too. It would be interesting to see how many women entering menopause have them...when their cycles are erratic and pregnancy may just seem to be another symptom of the change. Imagine the fear that they feel.

Veronica

Thanks for this Nell. Thank you.

valley girl

The point, to me, isn't that abortion is regrettable and that people need to be castigated and expected to conform to some baseline of responsibility to satisfy their deserving to get a legal medical procedure. I don't mean to speak for anyone, but I do think people who are "neutral" on the topic really have these ideas internalized...The point is to celebrate these mothers that are already facing the challenges of parenting, some even beyond what the average family does, and to declare that they have a right to realize that they are not bad mothers or people for making the decisions that are best for their families.

Goooooo moms!

LaDonna

Ok let me rephrase: There are medical procedures besides abortion that can stop unexpected pregnancies. Vasectomies and tubal ligations are the two that come to mind. Yes these are premenant solutions but if a couple is going to go so far as to abort a baby than surely they know they no longer want more children. My husband's vasectomy cost $500 without health insurance. I'm not sure what the going rate is for an abortion but it can't be much less than that. I am not for or against abortion. Would I get one? No and I'm not God so it's not my say on whether it's right or wrong. I can only hope that after having the abortions done that these couples will rethink their birth control options.

valley girl

Being interested doesn't give you any right to know, or make judgments because you're measuring someone against your arbitrary concept of "responsibility". Just because you've had the privilege of access to contraception and the luck to never experience an unexpected pregnancy does not mean you can define others who've had a different experience.

Besides, when it comes to being responsible, I think that these women are doing more by taking care of their families to the best of their abilities than, say, those who take a stand against a procedure that saves lives and families based on some nebulous logic or religious conviction.

LaDonna

Fracture, I would be interested in knowing just how responsible they were. I've been sexually active since I was 17 (going on 29). Birth control and condoms never failed me. Once my husband and I decided we were done having children we opted for a vasectomy. I (we) are not rich, we do not have insurance so all of the above came out of pocket.

Fracturedrefuge.blogspot.com

LaDonna: Maybe they were being "responsible." Condoms break, birth control fails. Or maybe they couldn't afford birth control in the first place. Pills, shots, condoms - all of these cost money, which, when you have a special needs child, is often in short supply.

Paul: You know what? The next time you find yourself pregnant with a special needs child already in your house, or pregnant by rape, or pregnant as a single mother, or pregnant and in danger of losing your job because of it, or, come to think of it, pregnant at all, then I will be happy to listen to your views on abortion. Until then, you have absolutely no right to condemn anyone for making the decision they felt was best for them and their family.

Not Guilty

Paul, I wish I was capable of being as shortsighted as you. Really, you are a lucky man to see the world in black and white, with no shades of gray. Where the right decision is always obvious and never comes with consequences. Until I am able to delude myself and see the world as black and white, I will be grateful for the doctors who help when the shades of gray create a need for tough decisions.

LaDonna

While these are sad stories why weren't these women and their husbands taking more precautions? These abortions would have never occurred if they had been more responsible.

Julie

As an actual woman, and the grateful recipient of an abortion some years ago, I wanted to tell you that you ARE doing a wonderful thing. Paul needs to crawl back under the rock he came from, and work harder to figure out how he can contribute to the world even one-eighth of what you contribute every day. Thank you.

KushielsMoon

Paul, you forget about the 9 months these women would have had to remain pregnant. Do you think Carmen could have taken maternity leave and not been fired? Do you think Liz could have been pregnant while her son hit her? Do you think Ellie could have gone on bedrest while her son had more machines than one can name?

It isn't just about having a child, but going through the pregnancy too. Abortion DOES help women and families- just like the families above- to stay together, live their lives, to take care of their children.

I'm sure God smiles at these wonderful doctors who do so much to keep these families together and surviving.


___________________

Thank you for sharing these stories. They are the ones often ignored and hidden. These women have their abortions and then go back to caring for their children. 60% of women who abort are mothers- we should never forget that.

Paul

Without a doubt, these women were in tough situations, but not of them justified the taking of innocent human life. If all five of them would have given birth and given the children to loving adoptive parents, there would be five beautiful children on this Earth, with the hope of leading productive, happy lives. Instead, they chose the quick way out, and allowed you to kill their babies.

Regardless of what you or any other abortion doctor may think, killing a woman's unborn child is not helping her or society. You are not only killing a human being, but wiping out an entire line of human beings. May God have mercy on your soul for trying to make it sound like you're doing such a wonderful thing for women. You most assuredly are not.

Talon

Wow. Thank you. Seriously. Thank you.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment