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Tuesday, August 01, 2006

Comments

Julie

I see the spambots have been very, very busy on this site. Although no real people have posted here lately, can the bots be removed, please? They are cluttering up the place.

Rune C. Olwen

"I see a girl looking for love herself. Where can you find it?"
sorry, Doc. DonĀ“t blame yourself, this question has no other answer than: "There is none." - too often, of course.
The vicious circle of unwanted children having to live without help or protection goes into another round, and you could not do anything. I know, it feels awful. And do not take the blame of the moralizers, they are just like the people calling me a bastard (and other things I would rather not put in print)my whole school time because of being born!

Christine

This is incredibly depressing and sad in a very tragic sort of way. I dearly hope, dare I say pray?, that this girl finds someone with the time and money who will be willing to spend the effort on helping her. Her and her baby. You didn't blow it. You tried to do what you thought was the right thing and I applaud you for that. However, in this case maybe abortion wasn't/isn't the right choice. You never know how things will turn out. Maybe it will be like "Pretty Woman" who knows... I just wish I could do something for these girls. This has to be so hard on them getting pulled at and bitten from every direction.

Vidiot

Bon, there's quite a discussion (about this post) going on in the comments here, and I thought you might want to participate.

http://www.dawneden.com/2006/09/when-avoiding-abortion-is-empty.html

John

"I know that it is not my job to solve people's problems in a short session."

No, that's the abortionists job.

Because you failed someone will be born. Hopefully she (or he) will one day find this post and read about the day Mom saved her life by not listening to you.

Julie

Not only are you unable to answer my question (do you know for sure, or are you just guessing?), you change the subject and bring up "abortion clinics make money while CPCs are free". Goody for them, but you failed to address the main point.

Shon

Do CPC's report statuatory rape? I'd see no reason for them to break the law. Abortion clinics make money from aborting, CPC's are 100% free. Why wouldn't they follow the law?

Julie

So if it's not known for sure if CPCs report cases of statuatory rape, then it is disingenous (sp?) to attack abortion clinics for not doing it.

Crispy

Julie, Julie, Julie. Actually, I didn't say you accused anyone of anything, I was trying to clarify what you meant. You said:

"Personally, I feel referring this girl to a CPC is the worst thing you could do to her. If she is determined to give birth, she needs medically accurate information to help her make good choices and ensure a healthy baby..."

... which seems to imply that CPCs *do not* give "medically accurate information to help her make good choices and ensure a healthy baby". Not putting words in your mouth, just seeking a clarification.

With regard to statutory rape, I showed from Bon's post that it was not likely that Samantha wanted to spare the "boyfriend". I also shared some information I had found on abortion clinics and the requirement to report statutory rape. This was to provide some concrete facts rather than bloviating. That the survey chose PP and NAF clinics was not my doing, though I understand that these two organizations run a large number of clinics.

I do not know whether CPC's report statutory rape or not. A quick search didn't turn up much of anything--does anyone have any information? I may call one up just to see...

You see, I'm more interested in facts and reality than attacks and opinions--on either side. If you read my original post, you'll see that I posed a couple of questions which were raised by Bon's article.

WRT Bon's "preaching" for abortion, it's reasonable to assume that *both* Bon and a CPC counselor would try to persuade a woman toward their point of view, thus the word "preaching". That was not the main point, though. The point was that Samantha did not want an abortion, so providing resources to help "ensure a healthy baby" would really be in her best interest.

boo

It has come to my attention that the liberal left have distorted the English language by making up non-sensical phrases to describe things and activities that have been easily defined for hundreds of years. The true meanings of these propagandish phrases are as follows:
Embrace diversity-love a nigger, spic, wap, chink, or sand nigger
Empower women-have politicians looking for votes allow the courts to become communistic tools to give women money from fathers getting screwed by the system so they won't tax the welfare wystem and get handouts with less shame
gay rights-allow fags and dykes to sodomise and copulate without getting castrated or de-cunt lipped
domestic violence-what happens when a husband catches his bitch sucking his neighbors dick
wetland-a worthless swamp that should be used for a garbage dump but liberals want it for "wildlife"
undocumented alien-a spic in the USA illegally
politically correct-what the unhappy commentors to this post will attempt to define so readers will think they are "in the know" and "cool"

Kodos

Wowsers. I simply wanted to commend you on your phenomenal work. A gal-pal of mine sent me a link to your blog and I'm in complete awe. Thank you so much for presenting abortion and it's many sides in a compassionate, fair and cogent fashion. We need more clear voices in our fight to protect our reproductive rights.

My sincerest thanks and deepest appreciation for your words, wisdom and candor.

Fondly...
/Kodos

Julie

Crispy, crispy, crispy. I never accused anyone of anything, so please stop putting words into my mouth - and bon's mouth as well (she was "preaching for abortion"??). You seemed to want to turn your comment into an attack on abortion clinics in general and PP in particular.
Nor did you answer my questions about CPCs reporting cases of statuatory rape. If a CPC counsellor finds out a underage client has been sexually molested, do they report this to the authorities? How many molestors have been successfully prosecuted with the help of CPCs?

Crispy

Julie, are you accusing CPC's of not giving information needed to ensure a healthy baby? Where's your source for this? They usually provide more than "preaching" and a "free box of diapers".

It also seems like you didn't read the original posting with regard to statutory rape:

"Her partner is older, and you could argue statutory rape except that the mother said it was OK for him to live with her for a while. Still, that was the gun to Samantha's head-- if she didn't have the abortion the mother was going to put him in jail for statutory rape."

Obviously, her family is aware that she's been sexually active. Note, too, that 14-15 is statutory rape anywhere in the country, even with the mother's "permission".

Regarding clinics' tacit complicity with statutory rape, one survey (see http://www.childpredators.com/CoverUp.cfm ) called over 800 Planned Parenthood and National Abortion Federation facilities across the country and found that:

"...the vast majority of Planned Parenthood and National Abortion Federation facilities that we contacted were willing to illegally conceal the sexual abuse of this 13-year-old girl. In every case, the clinic representative had never met this child, knew virtually nothing about her, had only engaged in a brief telephone conversation with her, and was told nothing to indicate that her parents would be abusive if they discovered the sexual relationship.

"Nevertheless, these clinic workers were willing - and in many cases eager - to help this child hide the fact that she was being sexually exploited from her parents and the authorities. Toward that end, they provided step-by-step instructions on how to circumvent state laws that were enacted specifically for the purpose of protecting children exactly like her, in situations just like this."

This may or may not apply to bon's clinic--my question to her was never answered.

As far as Samantha protecting the sperm donor, bon's article continues:

"She was adamant that abortion was murder and she wasn't going to do that, no matter what anyone said. But the consequences of that were not only the boyfriend possibly going to jail, but more importantly, that she would no longer be welcome at her mother's house..."

Apparently, this girl was willing to pay the price for her pro-life standard. It does not seem like she "wants to protect him".

Back to CPC's, most offer many resources to help ensure the mother's and baby's health and safety. Most of the "preaching" they provide is to convince the mother not to abort--something Samantha was already decided on anyway. It appears that all bon had to offer (other than listening and "preaching" in favor of abortion) was the baby's death.

Julie

Personally, I feel referring this girl to a CPC is the worst thing you could do to her. If she is determined to give birth, she needs medically accurate information to help her make good choices and ensure a healthy baby - not preaching - even with the promise of a free box of diapers.

I've often heard the accusation abortion clinics keep mum about statuatory rape, but I don't know how accurate that is. Anyway, the girl may not want to come forward because her parents, friends, family and community would find out she's been sexually active and she would be judged as a "slut". On another level, the girl may believe she loves the man who impregnated her and she wants to protect him.
Conversely, do CPCs report possible cases of statuatory rape? How many arrests and successful prosecutions have been made from their reporting? How many cases were dropped and reputations trashed because there was no statuatory rape?

ginapea

First time to your blog--I am a social worker so I am seeing your post not in an abortion counseling framework specifically, but in a general counseling framework. My work is with adults with HIV, many of whom are drug addicted, homeless, mentally ill, etc...and your post really hit home. Sometimes there is just no answer or direction you can give to people. All you can do is be a safe person to hear what they are saying, and hope you have planted a seed of problem-solving that perhaps will bear some fruit someday, whether you know it or not. Your feelings of hopelessness/overwhelmed etc are likely a reflection of what S and her grandmother are feeling (good ol projective identification!). Sounds like you did what you were there to do, and with respect and empathy, though it may not have felt like it at the time.
Wishing you peace in your continued work.

Heather

(Preface: Have just found your blog via 'Sinister Girl'... am so glad to have found it. I worked as an abortion counselor a couple of years ago.)

Your interpretation of Samantha's situation sounds pretty accurate; I have certainly met enough young women who view pregnancy and motherhood as a declaration of their own personhood (which is ignored/denied by so many others) as much as it could involve a new relationship with a new person.

Obviously some sessions feel like a letdown - you don't ever make that connection with the woman you're speaking to, and that comfort level is never established. You may not have agreed with Samantha's decision, but you did not (unlike other people in her life) manipulate her or threaten her, to try and persuade her otherwise. You tried to offer more information and finally, you allowed her to leave and deal with the repercussions of her choice. In other words, you respected her. Sometimes, that's all you get - but it's so very important.

L.

I was wondering the same things Crispy wondered -- aren`t you obligated to report statutory rape? And why not refer her to a CPC -- or are the ones in your area the kinds that provide more preaching than actual help? Aren`t there national ones?

Personally, if I ever faced a crisis pregnancy and decided not to abort, I would put up with a little preaching to get some free clothes and diapers (or maybe even some church daycare or job referrals).

BeckaJo

Perhaps the poor girl didn't want to abort her baby because she sees some kind of connection between her own unloved and rejected status, and the idea of rejecting her baby that way just hurt too much.

This is not a pro-life statement. I am staunchly pro-choice and don't think keeping her baby - or even going through the pregnancy - is a good choice for that girl. But it's understandable in a very sad way.

Crispy

First, if she was already determined NOT to abort, why not refer her to a Crisis Pregnancy Center? No doubt they'd be able to get help for her, while she is carrying the baby, and may be able to help her put the child up for adoption, or whatever.

Second, are you not legally required to report statutory rape? Most states require this. Obviously, she doesn't seem to be able to meaningfully consent to sex, let alone its consequences. As for dad-to-be, why should he escape the consequences for his actions?

It sounds like you have a lot of empathy for that little girl, who doesn't really have a home. I imagine that you meet more of them than you would really like. I'm praying for the three of you...

saltyC

Every system of economics or belief has seams where things don't match up when it is mapped onto the 3-dimensional world. In the case of our culture's beliefs about sex, the seams fall on teenage girls. They pay the harshest price for our sexual freedom.

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