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Wednesday, July 20, 2005

Comments

tea

i've had numerous abortions.

Julie

Forget what I said above. It's still Monday and I didn't get enough sleep last night. So, don't let the bastards get you down, LOU. But Grace, you are still right.

Julie

I laughed until I cried, Grace. All these people who claim to speak for God. "Did you ask His opinion...?" It's obvious the writer of that believes only She knows what God thinks. Well, it's Monday and I needed the yuks. Don't let the bastards get you down Grace.

kay

Look i think that to all of you people who are on here smashing this girl because she wanted her aborted baby baptised, is just as wrong as actually getting an abortion!!!! i never believed in abortion and to me is the most cruel thing!!! but i was recently pregnagt! i was happy about the baby i wanted and loved my baby more tahn anything!!!! i talked to it i rubbed my belly constantly!!!! but i found myself in the worst situation possible with my husband!!! it ended in an abortion and i didnt want it then and i regret it more than anything now!!! i cry daily i have no life what so ever anymore because i cant live with the fact that i murdered my baby!!! this little life that could have grown to be the greatest person in the world!!! it hurts!!! and if i could i would do anythig to bring my baby back!!! but i cant!!! and it doesnt help when rude people who dont know anything about what us women who do get abortins, go through!!!! yes there are women out there who get pregnant and from the begining to the end,dont want there babys!!! but i wasnt one of them and im sure that this woman who had her baby baptized wasnt eather! she just wanted to try to turn this cruel thing that she was doing into somthing that god could just maybe except!!!! maybe you all shouldmind your own buisness because you think you know it all but you dont know s**t!!!!!

Joane Merlain

"Baptizing an aborted baby!" In the name of who??? You can't serve God and satan.

You don't even have to be a religious person to see that there is something absolutely wrong with claiming to baptize a child whom you kill. Then, what really bothers me is the other writer who sees abortion as "for the greater good." Who gives you the right to take an innocent life away? Just because a child cannot speak for himself or herself, doesn't make the life any less deserving or deserve any less protection than yours or mines. A lot of folks taught slavery was okay too and I'm certain "for the greater good." Maybe my opinion is biased because I am a black female, but I would beg to defer and I'm certain many other non-blacks would as well.

A little food for thought: if you're broke, down on your luck, already have kids that you can't afford to take care of, here is a little piece of advice-- practice safe sex (don't they basically give out free birth control, condoms, etc. at those planned parenthood places now a days.) Here is another piece of advice I have heard works wonders for avoiding an unwanted pregnancy--"abstinence." While I do understand that for many those few moments of pleasure versus "simply" getting an abortion later makes the choice of abstinence a difficult one. But trust me; you will be doing your conscience a big favor. That is if you have one. Which leads to another issue with abortion today . . . people seem to use it as a form of birth control.

Of course, I do realize that for some, the decision whether to have an abortion is sometimes thrust at them. For example, when a doctor tells a patient that her life is in jeopardy or the extremely unfortunate situation when a woman is violated in the worst way through rape. In these situations, my only advice is to turn to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The truth is, despite the circumstances we find ourselves, the Commandment "thy shall not kill still stands." Moreover, the Bible teaches us that GOD is the same then, now and forever. He does not change and is not a respecter of man.

We have all sinned. But the good news is Christ paid the price for our sins a long time ago. All one has to do is recognize his or her wrong, ask for forgiveness, and turn away from the sinful lifestyle. This brings up another problem with pro-choice advocates-- until they start admitting that it is a living infant and not just “tissue” they cannot seek that forgiveness because after all, there can't possibly be anything wrong with removing some tissue!

Scott

This thread shows how distantly the abortionist is detatched from what he or she is doing. Aware, yet totally detatched.

It boggles the human mind.

Zelda

So you murdered the baby and then baptized it at the mom's request? Doesn't the fact that she wanted it baptized raise a red flag that perhaps abortion was not the best choice for her? Or were you more concerned with the dollars going down the disposal than the baby?

And what arrogance to think that you have the power to send a baby "back to god."

You are nothing but a paid assasin. And you are the worst kind because you can kill the most helpless and defenseless of all humanity.

angela

Oh and might I add, Thou shall not kill. It's the 10 commandments, not the 10 suggestions.

Jacqueline

I was explaining that the consequences of my being wrong do not carry the same severity of consequences as you being wrong.

I don't live my life to avoid Hell. I also don't beleive in mortal sin. I beleive in justification and redemption of sin because any sin is mortal without Christ. No sins are forgivable without Christ either.

I don't live a righteous life to avoid Hell, I live a righteous life to please my Father in Heaven whom I love. Grace, you do not know Him. You want to be a "person of faith" yet you seem more concerned with defending a lifestyle/practice that He condemns. I bet you still haven't asked Him His opinion on killing unborn babies, have you? Being a person of faith means beleiving the truth and living in light of the truth, yet what you say is contradictory to the truth. You are religious and boastful about your religious status, but your religion will not save you.

Matthew 7:22 says, "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Abortion is evil- That innocent soul that got sent to Heaven, it had only one life and it was stolen. We are forbidden to do murder- and although that child is innocent, you will have to answer for this. There's only one way out and that's through Jesus.

Allan

"we in fact do all we can to honor the life that women are unable to continue"
That's a lie. If you do all you can to honour a life you wouldn't be involved in murdering her. God help me if you ever honour my life or you might come to murder me too.

To be dead honest with you Grace, at least you tried to baptize the baby. God knows if you baptized her validly. You need the proper intention too, which is to free the baby of original sin, become a child of God and have the Holy Ghost live in the child. Or at least have the intention to do what the Church does when She baptizes.

If you repsected life you wouldn't be murdering an innocent human being for the convenience of the mother.

I am deeply concerned for your soul. I pray for you that God will give you such a cross to carry with Him that you will know the pain of the little ones you kill and be converted. Do you know what the cross feels like? I ask this because I fear you have chosen hell and have too quickly turned your back on heaven.

May God give you this blessing

Angela

Grace,
Not a one of us has any business damning anyone else to hell. We, as followers of Christ, are not here to hand down jugement. That, as we all know, is the Creator's business. We hate the sin, not the sinner. Christ died for our redemption--all of us, not just a select few. No matter how aggregious the sin, it can be absolved. However, it is our responsibility to ask of everyone to remember that one day each of us will be standing in front of our Creator and will be judged. And let us not forget that Jeremiah 1:5 says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart." We, even the unborn, are precious to God and worthy of life.
I am sorry that my thoughts are seen as shallow and pathetic to you. I deeply apologize for my shallowness both perceived and real. I pray for us all, that God may have mercy on us.

Grace

So Jacqueline, the only motivation for living a good life is believing that there is a hell, and anyone who doesn't believe in hell is automatically living a life of mortal sin?

Just curious.

Frankly, I do find the idea of baptizing an aborted fetus pretty revolting. Having some kind of ceremony - yeah. Baptism - no. That's because baptism is, theologically, the welcoming of a living person into the Body of Christ. If you're already dead, you're taken care of. I have no opinion on whether a fetus of whatever age has a soul - if not, no problem; if so, it's innocent and therefore taken care of. I would apply the same logic if I were asked to baptize a stillborn, fullterm baby (and since I was a hospital chaplain for eight months, it's only by chance that I wasn't, and another chaplain did so during the same period). The baby is in heaven; it doesn't NEED baptism.

Which doesn't mean I don't find most of the anti-abortion rhetoric on these pages shallow, hideously offensive to me as a person of faith, and pathetically hilarious.

Angela

Ron-
Oversimplified eh? Perhaps you don't suscribe to the Pro-Choice tenant that a baby is only tissue, not a life, until birth. I ask you this, if you don't believe that and you believe that life begins at conception then how do you reconcile abortion as not murder? If you concede that abortion is taking a human life then there is no argument here.

Perhaps instead of "baptising" that poor child for the sake of the mother. The mother should have been urged to adopt her baby out, spare the life. As far as this "baptism" giving her peace. Please. I pray for this woman because by her actions she is showing the deep psychological torment that she will carry with her always. And might I add that many women who have chosen abortion carry.

Ron Sullivan

Jacqueline, your post includes at least four objective lies about me -- and that doesn't include the unprovable assertions about how I'm going to Hell or about Jesus, because I'm sticking to the immediately demonstrable, and the inexcuseable. Now, why would that increase anyone's confidence in your unproveable assertions? You can carry on like that for the rest of your life and the only effect will be an increase in the noise and carbon dioxide levels in your immediate area. Whatever you are basing your beliefs on is leading you to lies. is there any reason anyone should take it seriously? That includes your version of Pascal's Wager and historically ignorant slippery slopes, too.

And no, my believing something or disbelieving something else isn't what makes it true or untrue either; it goes the other way. I "believe" the Earth is more or less round based on lots of evidence. I suspect there are more than one definition of "believe" here.

Mondonico, ditto the above on the slippery slope, not to mention the lying generalizations. No amount of playing "Gotcha!" when someone shows empathy, and carries out a patient's harmless wish about making ceremonial gestures, will make what you say about that someone true. Telling people what they ~really~ think is a very poor way to argue, because it leads so easily to... lies. Since that card is already in play, might I remind you that the people who were actually the world gold-medal champions of systematically killing off the "unfit" also put themselves in charge of women's reproductive choices -- declaring and enforcing that some must abort AND that some must not? If you have a problem with only part of that command, you might want to rethink, and read some history.

Angela, see above. And beware of assuming that your oversimplified versions of other people's beliefs has anything to do with reality, let alone what they think.


Angela

Ron, and I quote you: "The fact that you believe something doesn't make it true" Likewise, the fact that you believe that a baby is only a blob of tissue or that a woman has a right to kill her offspring doesn't make it true either.

mondonico

"I wonder if the holy trolls have anything substantive to say. "

You don't have to be "holy" or a "troll" to be sickened by the acknowledgment of an unwanted baby as a human life while at the same time killing it.

See, as long as the abortionists maintained the "it's just a bunch of tissue" position, no matter how insincerely, they could pretend it wasn't killing.

This entry shows that they know it's killing a human life, but that they think it's ok because it's "for the best" or "for the greater good".

Once you cross that line--deciding that it's OK to kill innocent human beings "for the best" or "for the greater good"--you've entered the Brave New World. Who's next? The elderly? The disabled? The homeless? The mentally ill? AIDS victims? All of these folks can be characterized as burdens on society--wouldn't offing them be "for the greater good"? And, it's no loss, because who wants to live in that condition, right? And who's "mentally ill" anyway? In the USSR, those who dissented from the ruling ideology were deemed insane...

And, who decides?

Jacqueline

Ron, you say beleiving something doesn't make it true. Likewise, just because you DO NOT believe something does not make it untrue. You can not beleive that the world is round, and that won't change the fact that it is.

People with your mindset always give the benefit of the doubt to the side with the gravest consequences. For example, if there is no hell and no one will burn there, then my attempting to live a righteous life by loving my neighbor as myself has not and will hurt me at all. I am safe either way. However, if there is indeed a hell, your living like there is not one will lead to your eternal damnation. Yet, you choose to beleive there is not one so you may live as you want.

By that same token, if abortion is not the murder of an innocent child then I am guilty of providing women in crisis pregnancies with resources and support they need and my beleifs do no harm. I am safe either way. If abortion is the murder of an innocent child, then you have supported and likely participated in a holocaust that has well exceeded the damage of Hitler's by millions of lives. Yet, you choose to beleive what you want, so you may live as you want.

To make this a less polarized analogy, let's say there is a debate on whether smoking is healthy or not. Let's say that I beleive it's not and you beleive it is. If smoking does not contribute to lung cancer then my not smoking has not harmed me at all. If smoking does contribute to lung cancer, your smoking could cause lung cancer. Regardless of whether you choose to beleive something will not shield you from the actual consequences. When you face God for judgement, I doubt He will say, "Oh, you didn't beleive in me---Then I guess I don't exist."

I'm not trying to be the Holy Troll that provides your substantive argument, I'm just trying to point out the inherent dangers in your desperate bid to maintain control of your life. There are serious risks in living without any absolutes.

Jesus Christ was crucified, buried and rose again. Not believing this does not change the fact that it's true.

Ron Sullivan

"Hey guys, Becky has some old clothes in her parents attic, Al's got an big old table and we can use Old Man Jone's barn as a holy site, let's make a religion!"

Add some guy getting knocked off his horse, steep for years and years in some hapless popular culture, and you pretty much have it. Oh yeah, and add a dash of pious misogyny, while pretending you know better that any particular woman what she ought to do and will feel in the future and will tie her up and hang her if she does something you don't want her to... For Her Own Good of course.

I can see being kind to superstitious people when they're in need and trouble, especially when they're one's patients. I see no point in doing so, especially not in deferring to their superstition, when they're howling like the Bain Sidhe that anyone who doesn't follow their rules needs redemption from, well, from not following their rules, evidently, and/or is a terrible evil person. Or will go straight to their imagined hell, as in,
"Just wait, my all-merciful all-powerful all-knowing friend Zeus will cast you into the lake of fire."

The fact that you believe something doesn't make it true. The fact that you can scream it loudly in harmonic chorus doesn't give anybody a reason to believe it. The fact that you will say ominously, "Just wait till YOU die and come before the judgment of Thor!" doesn't make it credible.

I wonder if the holy trolls have anything substantive to say.


syn

When Margaret Sanger's Sisterhood aborted Susan B. Anthony's equal rights for women, all women lost our rights to humanity.

Harvard@Cal

"If you're not doing religion their way, then you are doing it wrong and they sit in judgement."

Can someone top this as the most asinine statement in the 21st century?

Hey guys, Becky has some old clothes in her parents attic, Al's got an big old table and we can use Old Man Jone's barn as a holy site, let's make a religion!

Here, let me repair the obvious errors in that last sentance:

This post is a grotesque testament to the ways that pro-choice people are religiously schzoid, and that self-worship and abortion are not mutually exclusive. Many of us live exactly this kind of life every day. Kudos for showing it.

SarahS

I think its really weird how the pro-life side claims that "morals" and "religion" belong exclusively to them and you talking about religion and abortion being perfectly compatible for some people has thrown them into a tither. The comments in this thread clearly indicate that the prolife community seems to think that they can own religion and anyone who doesn't share their view that abortion and religion are opposites must be doing it be purposefully sacriligious, out of stupidity, or to mock them. If you're not doing religion their way, then you are doing it wrong and they sit in judgement.

This post is a beautiful testament to the ways that pro-choice people are religiously devoted, and that spirituality and abortion are not mutually exclusive. Many of us live exactly this kind of life every day. Kudos for showing it.

Christine

I hate to break it to you, but you cannot Baptise anyone after death. Performing or helping to perform or even advising or driving someone to an abortion is a mortal sin. Think back a bit more on your Catholic upbringing and remember that if one dies with mortal sin on his soul, he damns himself for eternity.

"Baptising" a dead child that you helped to kill makes a mockery of the Sacrament, and I do hope that you come to realize it. When you do, please know that the Church will take you back when you are ready for repentence. In the meantime, please be careful - presenting oneself for Communion while in a state of mortal sin denegrates the Blessed Sacrament, and, as I said, if one dies with mortal sin on his soul, he has damned himself for eternity.

I pray that you come to realize what a big mistake abortion is.

mondonico

Cat wrote: "Birthing children in poverty and raising them without proper food or care is, sadly, a reality for many women. Having an abortion is, in a very real way, a very mature and motherly thing to do under such circumstances...choosing a path that is difficult and painful (an abortion) but for the greater good for the current family is a very spiritual process."

You are truly evil. Using your logic, parents should kill a child whenever it is "for the greater good" for the rest of the family. Why stop there? Let's kill the terminally ill and save medical expenses "for the greater good." Let's kill the homeless "for the greater good." Let's kill those who dissent from the slavery that "for the greater good" thinking represents.

Pol Pot lives, apparently.

mondonico

This is absolutely revolting on a number of levels. These people are psychotic. This narrative will do more to ban abortion than 100 picketers.

Joe Baybee

At this rate, might as well hold a baby shower, too.

Sorry to be so flippant...I probably won't get invited to the First Communion now.

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